Tonearm Advice Please?

[Darren L]

Thank you for all the responses and opinions thus far. It is most enlightening and much appreciated.



This is in line with my reason for the help request.

Regards
Peter

Hopefully you'll get others with more relevant experience giving an answer, I do know a chap works in a top hifi store somewhere in South Africa who may be able to lend some relevant advice, if you want to PM me I'll give you his contact details.

 

[Mr Pig]

I watched 'some like it hot' last week on our blastfromthepast evening. It was crap (barring Jack Lemmon who was great) and Monroe?
hmmmmm.

Jack Lemmon is amazing but Monroe adds a lot to the film too. So she's not the best actress in the world be she has presence in the same way that many big male actors do.

 

[Mike Reed]

The Thales Statement has an effective mass of 24g , I guess the Reed and Schroeder may vary depending on the armwand material.

Didn't know he Thales was high mass, Darren and it's worth noting as I was contemplating a change of arm. The Reed 3P I like, and that unipivot comes in at 19g. A friend has the middle Glanz (30g?) but I'm not crazy about it.

 

[Darren L]

@Mike Reed the Thales tonearms all vary in effective mass, the Statement at 24g, the Thales simplicity 2 has an effective mass of 19g and the Thales Easy has an effective mass of 10g, a fair difference, yet we see them all partnered with EMT cartridges which all have the same compliance.

 

[Rockmeister]

There’s a fair few bits of HiFi kit being used in less than ideal conditions. Some people are apparently not too bothered about fine tuning. Compliance or not, the cartridge will still produce sound

 

[Darren L]

There’s a fair few bits of HiFi kit being used in less than ideal conditions. Some people are apparently not too bothered about fine tuning. Compliance or not, the cartridge will still produce sound

I would have thought the Thales + EMT design would've have been ideal as they actually are different brands from the one manufacturer, along with the fairly recently introduced X-quisite MCs

 

[GT]

You'd need different mass arms for these, Darren. A stone bodied K really will deserve a 20g+ arm.

The Thales Simplicity effective mass is about 20 grams...

 

[Rockmeister]

Thank you for all the responses and opinions thus far. It is most enlightening and much appreciated.



This is in line with my reason for the help request.

Regards
Peter

There are a lot of suggestions that might be made, but at present far too little information if you'll forgive me.

1: Is the owner interested in the looks of the arm? If so, what kind of look does he favour?
2: What is the likely budget.? Top class arms can be had for anything above £1000. What does he expect from this arm?
3: Cartridge matching is the entire point of arm choice. If he is set on the Hana, then we have a guide but as has been mentioned, Hana is a great giant challenger, but the giants still exist. If you go over £2000, even Hana will admit that they might come second.
4: How good does he want this to be and then, see my Q2.

 

[GT]

There's quite a lot of really high end Phonostages available from companies like Zanden, Aesthetix, Thomas Mayer, Kondo, CS port, CH Precision, that's just a few, I'm guessing it would come down to a choice of what's available in his country and what flavour he likes.

What no mention of Tron?

Tron-Electric is one a only a few companies that has promoted the analogue format when most other companies dropped analogue like a ton of bricks, as they saw it as a dead format. Still, its nice to know that most audio companies have 25 years worth of catching up to do...

 

[GT]

I would have thought the Thales + EMT design would've have been ideal as they actually are different brands from the one manufacturer, along with the fairly recently introduced X-quisite MCs

My experience of EMT cartridges, the modern ones that is, is not that favourable. Very high in output for an MC at about 1mV, and also bright and grainy in presentation, so not a great match for any phono stage, unless one is made for it. I haven't heard the X-quisite yet so I can't comment on that one.

FWIW, Micha Huber who's the designer of Thales of tonearms and turntables, now fronts EMT.

 

[Rockmeister]

I agree
EMT are a little too clinical and cold for me.
Around £2000 and up there are 10 carts I prefer and they are all easier to match mass/compliance wise.

 

[Darren L]

What no mention of Tron?

Tron-Electric is one a only a few companies that has promoted the analogue format when most other companies dropped analogue like a ton of bricks, as they saw it as a dead format. Still, its nice to know that most audio companies have 25 years worth of catching up to do...

Yes of course I should include Tron and SJS as top end valve equipment.

 

[Darren L]

I agree
EMT are a little too clinical and cold for me.
Around £2000 and up there are 10 carts I prefer and they are all easier to match mass/compliance wise.

Just the 10?

 

[sonddek]

The Blackbird effective mass is ~11g but it comes with an inertia weight of 9g so that you can add effective mass to taste by sliding the inertia weight along the arm between the cartridge and pivot. The principle advantage of matching effective mass to cartridge suspension, to my ear, is that too low an effective mass can compromise bass response. For very high compliance cartridges you can remove the inertia weight altogether or leave it sitting directly above the pivot.

 

[Mike Reed]

It's been suggested many times in the past that to add eff. mass to an arm, simply weigh down the headshell with Blutak or, preferably, something else more aesthetically pleasing. As one who probably puts too much emphasis (in theory, at least) on matching eff. mass to cart. requirements, I wonder if adding a washer or whatever to the headshell really is as effective as having the correct arm.

Furthermore, would this apply to all arm lengths and whether unipivot or gimbal? Hopefully, some reassurance on this from more technically savvy fishies.

 

[Rockmeister]

At this price level, adding washers, even as a metaphor is simply wrong
Get the arm mass and the cartridge compliance to match.
First, pick your arm and then go see which of your shorlisted carts provides a perfect match and
bingo.

 

[sonddek]

It's been suggested many times in the past that to add eff. mass to an arm, simply weigh down the headshell with Blutak or, preferably, something else more aesthetically pleasing. As one who probably puts too much emphasis (in theory, at least) on matching eff. mass to cart. requirements, I wonder if adding a washer or whatever to the headshell really is as effective as having the correct arm.

Furthermore, would this apply to all arm lengths and whether unipivot or gimbal? Hopefully, some reassurance on this from more technically savvy fishies.

The only argument against topping up effective mass to the required level in this way is that the added mass could have contributed to a stiffer arm. But that is idealism. If you are using an arm which is too light for a cartridge it will sound better if you add the mass top-up. If you wished to try out or change to a higher compliance cartridge with an optimally matched arm, you're out of luck as there is no easy way to make it lighter. Only small reductions can be made by contriving a denser counterweight since much of the inertia is in the arm structure and cartridge.

For this reason I decided to make a light stiff arm for maximum compatibility with a wide range of cartridge compliances, by means of increasing the contribution of the inertia weight when using lower compliance cartridges. At the end of the day, if a light arm with an inertia weight sounds better than a heavy arm without one, the distribution of the mass of the inertia weight becomes academic, and the adjustability of effective mass for the sake of cartridge promiscuity is a nice capability to have for the future.

Could I have made the arm even stiffer by increasing weight? Yes, and if it becomes really popular I might produce a higher-mass model, but for now it can take on all comers and suit all tastes by allowing you to add your own salt (mass).

 

[Mike Reed]

First, pick your arm and then go see which of your shorlisted carts provides a perfect match and
bingo.

In the setting where you can plan a cart./arm match or have amazing foresight for the next decade's vinyl needs, fine, Rocky, but I've had more cart's than arms (and I can't be an odd one out here),. This entails either expensive changes or adaptations to tide one over. Hence my question about the actual efficacy of adding a bit of weight and whether there are any drawbacks (aesthetics excepting).

Sonddek's reply above suggests a theoretical drawback in making an arm stiffer. I can't see how, but isn't stiffness in an arm a good thing?

If adding something on top of the headshell, e.g., should that weight be the amount you want to add to the existing eff. mass? I suspect not, solely because it sounds too simplistic in this arm mass context.

 

[DimitryZ]

A friend is looking at purchasing the Revolve Turntable and is unsure of arm options.

I have been as helpful as I am able but am a bit out of my depth at the top-end of the turntable/arm market. Please could the PFM collective make some suggestions?

A link to the turntable in question - www.soundsnatural.co.za/index.php/revolve-turntable-project/

Thanking all in advance.

Regards
Peter

I would advise your friend not to buy this turntable, unless at a VERY deep discount.

The red light for me is that "Feature and Specifications" have no specifications.

This looks like a giant and entirely unwarranted money sink.

If your friend has money to burn, perhaps a top Rega or Technics or VPI table is the way to go with the rest of the "price" going to much needed charity.

 

[sonddek]

Sonddek's reply above suggests a theoretical drawback in making an arm stiffer. I can't see how, but isn't stiffness in an arm a good thing?

If adding something on top of the headshell, e.g., should that weight be the amount you want to add to the existing eff. mass? I suspect not, solely because it sounds too simplistic in this arm mass context.

Sorry I didn't make myself clear. I see no disadvantage in stiffness, quite the converse. The point is that the weight of the blu-tac on your headshell could have been contributed instead by a marginally thicker arm tube, in which case it would be slightly stiffer and therefore better. In theory. The blu-tac is dead mass because it performs no other function. The trade-off is between the potential for high-compliance cartridge promiscuity and bragging rights about how optimally stiff your shaft is(!). I made a very stiff shaft within the constraints of the low mass approach, but of course it could always be stiffer by being higher mass.

I happen to think that high-compliance, low tracking forces and low-mass diamond/cantilevers are good engineering in terms of low distortion and low record wear. In principle I would rather be tracking at 1 gram than 2.5g so I wanted my first model to be low mass. I suggest it will still give any high-mass arm a run for its money as long as the inertia weight is slid to the appropriate position to match the higher-mass arm's effective mass.

In other words, do be sure to add the appropriate extra mass with blu-tac, happy in the knowledge that your shaft's stiffness may not quite be maximised, but at least it has a prospect of copping-off with some quite sexy higher-compliance cartridges in the future.

I hope that's clear now!