Small speakers that sound like big ones
- Thread starter ossy
- Start date
James
Lord of the Erg\o/s
Sometimes. But there is a design choice. Small loudspeakers can go as low as bigger ones if you are prepared to sacrifice sensitivity. My little 9L E-IXs go as low as Yamaha NS-1000M (admittedly no bass monster either), but sacrifices 7db/w/2.83V of sensitivity.
The main difference with bigger loudspeakers is they can drive the room better.
They sure divide opinion. I can assure you though they are superbly built, rock solid and unmistakably higher end B&W. They appear sleeker and smaller in the room than on pictures too.
To these elderly eyes they look very nice. A modern take on the classic Nautilus theme both in materials and presentation.
Personally I applaud designs that dare and differ from the norm, probably the reason I also own Meta WL's but I can appreciate more traditional fare too. I would like to own a set of Harbeths or LS35A's sometime.
When I saw Tony's restoration project for his Leaks it did awake interest in owning a beautiful valve amplifier again too. It is perhaps not for now but ...
To these elderly eyes they look very nice. A modern take on the classic Nautilus theme both in materials and presentation.
Personally I applaud designs that dare and differ from the norm, probably the reason I also own Meta WL's but I can appreciate more traditional fare too. I would like to own a set of Harbeths or LS35A's sometime.
When I saw Tony's restoration project for his Leaks it did awake interest in owning a beautiful valve amplifier again too. It is perhaps not for now but ...
Sibbers
Earthling
Dynaudio Contour S1.3’s can really thump in a way that doesn’t make any sense but they need loads of amp. I would expect that’s true for most small speakers that can go loud and deep.
I would consider the suggestion of a sub tho. You can stick them in the corner, do a very small bit of EQ to notch out modal room problems and enjoy the improvement and sparkle it adds to the mains by augmenting the previously missing lows - done well a sub makes the mains sound as though they are full range.
I would consider the suggestion of a sub tho. You can stick them in the corner, do a very small bit of EQ to notch out modal room problems and enjoy the improvement and sparkle it adds to the mains by augmenting the previously missing lows - done well a sub makes the mains sound as though they are full range.
Just because it's fun arguing. My JBL 4331's (very big) doesn't have baffle step compensation, my 'other ones', LS3/5a's and KEF R100's does. Guess which ones do sound BIG and can go loud with very little effort?
S-Man
StrivingON
JBL's west coast sound is meant to sound big - by design
On a more serious note - why would you need BSC if the baffle is huge?
Tony L
Administrator
Scale has surprisingly little to do with bass extension IMO (assuming you have usable output at 40Hz to reproduce a bottom E). It is far more about pushing air, loading the room etc, and listening distance really is hugely important. A small speaker in the near field can sound just as big as a far larger one further away IME. It is all about using the right tool for the job!
PS I’m still investigating this one, but there is a documented LS3/5A ‘trick’ where you can get a good boost in scale/weight in a typical UK rectangular living room by placing them just over a metre away from the front wall (wider room dimension/firing across the narrow) and well away from the corners as this places them on the typical 40Hz-ish node present in such rooms. This amplifies the dramatically falling yet very tight and controlled output from the speakers, and in conjunction with their slight lift at 100Hz makes for a surprisingly big sound. I think by chance I hit it pretty much bang on when briefly trying them directly in front of my Tannoys in the main system, they sounded amazing and not much smaller! One of those situations many would point to the larger speakers being the ones playing. Basically you can get away with plonking them on a node without getting all the fart and boom of typical ported speakers.
PS I’m still investigating this one, but there is a documented LS3/5A ‘trick’ where you can get a good boost in scale/weight in a typical UK rectangular living room by placing them just over a metre away from the front wall (wider room dimension/firing across the narrow) and well away from the corners as this places them on the typical 40Hz-ish node present in such rooms. This amplifies the dramatically falling yet very tight and controlled output from the speakers, and in conjunction with their slight lift at 100Hz makes for a surprisingly big sound. I think by chance I hit it pretty much bang on when briefly trying them directly in front of my Tannoys in the main system, they sounded amazing and not much smaller! One of those situations many would point to the larger speakers being the ones playing. Basically you can get away with plonking them on a node without getting all the fart and boom of typical ported speakers.
Baffle width lowers the frequency range the speaker's radiation pattern transitions from beaming forward to omni-directional but doesn't eliminate it. To eliminate it the speaker needs to be flush with a wall. In practice if the speaker is close to a wall with a wide baffle then boundary reinforcement will counter the full 6 dB change to some extent which isn't necessarily good because the amount of change then becomes a variable function of the distance from the boundaries. Of course if for sound quality reasons the low frequency response is equalised to help counter the room response the issue will disappear.
S-Man
StrivingON
My first experience of "big" sound from small speakers was a pair of Servo-Sound motional feedback speakers in the 70s. These days kW of amplification, a pair of opposed 8" woofers on the side of a similarly sized Devialet Phantom type speakers will obviously outperform them but box sizes and speaker efficiencies were a bit larger in those days which added to the impact.
Tony L
Administrator
That thought had occurred to me, and may be a factor, but I seem able to get something similar upstairs too, i.e. they seem to generate more deep bass pulled further out from the wall than I typically have them, though this is obviously moving the listening position too. Sadly it isn’t practical in that room so I’ve not done more than a bit of testing.
This one isn’t my theory, it appears well known in LS3/5A circles, e.g. it is documented on this blog (Medialux). My limited testing so far suggests there is definitely something to it with these particular speakers. I suspect it is a combination of both the tight controlled nature of the BBC infinite baffle cab and the upper bass lift at around 100-110Hz. I don’t like the much drier JR149 in this location, they just sound too lean in the upper bass (the 149 likes to be about 8-14” away from the wall IME).
say it as it is
pfm Member
I am by no means an expert here but sorely missing the effortless natural bass that came from the old Naim Nam 402. The Intros have similar sizes drivers but no where near the effortless bass, my previous Tannoy DC6T had bass but felt forced and boomed. Something to be said for the bulky cabinet of the 402 with a front port or maybe it was the Goodmans driver and tweeter combination.
There were three versions of the Sabre, with the 3 being regarded as the best. As far as i know, the drivers were tweaked in house, from SEAS units? There were a couple of models that used Dynaudio drivers, but it wasn't across the board. I got rid of my Talismans for similar reasons to Ossy, but wish I hadn't! I've been looking for a pair of Sabre 3's to try and get the magic back in a smaller form- I've got a Ruark Vita sub at the moment, with a pair of Dyn Emit 20's. Good, but from audio memory, not as open as the Talismans?
irb
pfm Member
There's actually no mechanism by which they could make a noticeable contribution (contrary to all the old stuff about the need for single-speaker dem rooms). Of all the things in a room that might vibrate in sympathy with sounds, undriven speaker drive units are just about the least likely to emit an audible sound.
I’ve got a pair of sabre 3’s. After mucking about with a pair of quad 11l’s which sucked all the emotion out of the music I figured a smaller pair of ruarks would bring me some of the talisman’s magic. The sabres did this and I find them much more involving (without the bass issues) than the quads.
However, I miss the talismans sometimes, hence the thread. Maybe a sub would be the answer?
S-Man
StrivingON
That was what I thought until on one occasion I noticed a significantly off-to-the-left stereo image with my system. I then moved the pair of JR149s, that were on the floor to the left of each of my main speakers. This completely fixed the issue.
So based on my own experience and irrespective of the mechanism, I would avoid this situation wherever possible.