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Labour Leader: Keir Starmer IV

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Left and right are not equal. The Tories thrive on grift and racism, it is just what they do. The progressive left, which Labour can on occasion see on the distant horizon, is quite the opposite. As such gammon trigger-words such as ‘deport’ used to attack BAME folk is utterly unacceptable. I would expect such language from Farage, Johnson and other alt-right agitators, but no way in hell would anyone like Caroline Lucas, Layla Moran etc ever make such a fundamentally and so obviously offensive statement. Let alone actually take the time and effort to compose it on Twitter. Social media allows thinking time that real life doesn’t. Hit the ‘post reply’ button and you absolutely own it. If I understand this correctly this is the leader of theUnite union too, so a £150k+ a year plus expenses job. Zero excuses for not thinking before you post on that money IMHO.

Tony, taking a few words out of a post is a bit disingenuous. I would have hoped that after 18 years you would know me well enough to work out that I am not racist and never have been. FFS.. I'm about to become a Grandfather to a mixed race child and could not be more pleased.

Feel free to be indignant about the use of the word 'deport', by attaching connotations which the word simply does not attract. Deport means simply to forcibly expel from a country. It does not apply to any particular race and deportations are not solely applied to BAME individuals.

More importantly,, my post was not intended in any way to either praise or denigrate the famous 'Tweet' and I'm not going to even bother getting into the 'merits' or otherwise of Patel and her actions. My post was simply intended to highlight the very different approaches taken by Labour and the Tories in dealing with such matters.

You know as well as I do that the Tories casually dismiss far greater wrongdoing.. and far more frequently.. with seemingly..no effect on their ratings. That and that only was my point.
 
The Tories thrive on grift and racism, it is just what they do.
The Tory Party, probably. But members of parties have their own personality, and many are where they are simply out of circumstances or opportunities. That affects all parties, so I expect racists to be found pretty much on the whole spectrum. You don't honestly believe leftists to be the 'better people' per se Tony, do you ?

The progressive left
... are almost always privileged youngsters who are rarely representative of the average voter out of London, who has often other worries in life than the values the 'progressive left' stand for (and usually don't have a clue of, e.g. questions about gender). This has all been said before many times here and elsewhere, but socialdemocrats all over Europe are making the same mistakes over and over agin, and continue to blame the opposition for their abysmal results at polls and elections. I don't know what it takes until they get rid of the elitist bull they are still producing by the ton and replace it with truly social policies.
 
Feel free to be indignant about the use of the word 'deport', by attaching connotations which the word simply does not attract. Deport means simply to forcibly expel from a country. It does not apply to any particular race and deportations are not solely applied to BAME individuals.

Not commenting on your (I’m sure unimpeachable!) personal attitudes to race, but I think this is the stumbling block. It is for me, and I suspect Tony is catching the same issue.

Whatever a dictionary might say, in the context of a white person addressing a BAME person,m in this public way, the word deport absolutely does have racist overtones for many people if not, apparently, all.

To me, deport signifies not just an individual involuntarily leaving one place but also that the place the individual is moved to is somehow more ‘their’ place. The individual is characterised by the term deport as somehow an alien. There is a kind of relation to ‘go home’, or the state forcibly sending them back from whence they came.

Add to this the spin of it being a white person saying it to a non-white person, in a country where whites are the historic majority and people of Patel’s background have for decades been the target of explicitly racist attacks involving ‘go home’ sentiments, and the tweet become necessarily, irredeemably and unforgivably racist in tone, regardless of intent.

To be clear, I’m not trying to tell you you’re wrong or racist, I’m trying to highlight how other people apparently interpret the meaning of the word deport differently.

Personally I’m firmly in the camp I’ve described, and I suspect Tony may sympathise. Hence it’s a disagreement about the meaning of a word, not about whether you personally are a racist. It’s been an eye opener for me to see that others seem to read the word in a more neutral sense. And from the other side of the fence, hopefully this explains why some of us are so exercised about the tweet in question while others are less so.
 
Tony, taking a few words out of a post is a bit disingenuous. I would have hoped that after 18 years you would know me well enough to work out that I am not racist and never have been. FFS.. I'm about to become a Grandfather to a mixed race child and could not be more pleased.

I’ve absolutely no idea how you came to that conclusion from my post. No accusation of any kind was intended and I apologise unreservedly if such was taken. I was addressing the broad topic, not you at all.
 
You don't honestly believe leftists to be the 'better people' per se Tony, do you ?

Yes, basically I do. The whole concept of seeing a far bigger picture than ones own self-interest and not scapegoating or demonising others for ones failures is a just vastly more intelligent mindset to hold. To my eyes the political right can’t see much further than its own back pockets, and when it all inevitably goes wrong they scapegoat and blame the people at the very bottom (poor, brown, not from round here etc). They are highly violent too, most wars seem to stem from right-wing imperialism and its associated religions, slavery, apartheid etc too.
 
Not commenting on your (I’m sure unimpeachable!) personal attitudes to race, but I think this is the stumbling block. It is for me, and I suspect Tony is catching the same issue.

Whatever a dictionary might say, in the context of a white person addressing a BAME person,m in this public way, the word deport absolutely does have racist overtones for many people if not, apparently, all.

To me, deport signifies not just an individual involuntarily leaving one place but also that the place the individual is moved to is somehow more ‘their’ place. The individual is characterised by the term deport as somehow an alien. There is a kind of relation to ‘go home’, or the state forcibly sending them back from whence they came.

Add to this the spin of it being a white person saying it to a non-white person, in a country where whites are the historic majority and people of Patel’s background have for decades been the target of explicitly racist attacks involving ‘go home’ sentiments, and the tweet become necessarily, irredeemably and unforgivably racist in tone, regardless of intent.

To be clear, I’m not trying to tell you you’re wrong or racist, I’m trying to highlight how other people apparently interpret the meaning of the word deport differently.

Personally I’m firmly in the camp I’ve described, and I suspect Tony may sympathise. Hence it’s a disagreement about the meaning of a word, not about whether you personally are a racist. It’s been an eye opener for me to see that others seem to read the word in a more neutral sense. And from the other side of the fence, hopefully this explains why some of us are so exercised about the tweet in question while others are less so.
This is an interesting linguistic point. FWIW I don't attach that racist meaning to the words "deport" or "deportation", perhaps because of my own experience. I've been deported once (by Oman) for not having the right visa in my passport, and been threatened with the same by other countries, not only in the Middle East. It's just a risk of very frequent international travel. Also, a lot of people in occupied Europe were deported by the Nazis and their puppet regimes all around Europe, i.e. taken from their home countries to work and/or die in camps elsewhere in Central or Eastern Europe. IOW, white Europeans deporting other white Europeans, with the other place certainly not "more their place" .

I understand why using the word "deport" in connection with a minister like Priti Patel could be considered a poor choice of words. But I understand the reflex: Ms Patel has been very focused on deporting others, and one could wish, for a fleeting second, that she would reflect on that versus her family's experience before pressing that "Deport" button.
 
Yes, basically I do. The whole concept of seeing a far bigger picture than ones own self-interest and not scapegoating or demonising others for ones failures is a just vastly more intelligent mindset to hold. To my eyes the political right can’t see much further than its own back pockets, and when it all inevitably goes wrong they scapegoat and blame the people at the very bottom (poor, brown, not from round here etc). They are highly violent too, most wars seem to stem from right-wing imperialism and its associated religions, slavery, apartheid etc too.

Up to a point ... Left-wing dictatorships (Stalin, Mao) have killed at least as many as right-wing dictatorships, and have persecuted religious groups as well.
 
I think for some of us who grew up in the 80s it resonates of the National Front and ‘send them home’. I find it hard to believe that someone aiming for high office would post something inflammatory on social media and not pause to think it through. It suggests they’re not ready for high office. If Boris had posted ‘Sadiq Khan should be deported’ there would be massive howls of racism. Whether you like/dislike the protagonists it’s not acceptable. I personally find it hard to believe that some people are happy to justify his behaviour as an unfortunate error. It was crass stupidity pure and simple in my opinion.
 
This is an interesting linguistic point. FWIW I don't attach that racist meaning to the words "deport" or "deportation", perhaps because of my own experience.

It is a direct cultural thing in the UK. For decades the NF, BNP, EDL and other far-right groups have been spraying ‘go home’, ‘England for the English’ etc in areas with a high British Asian population density. This reached a head during the inherently racist right-wing Brexit campaign. As a random example I remember sitting on a tram into Manchester and hearing some ignorant gammon shouting at an Asian woman “we won, you lot can all f*** off home now…”. Leaving aside the fact that person was so utterly moronic they didn’t realise India/Pakistan isn’t in Europe, let alone that these are British Asian folk who have lived here for generations and helped build a lot of the nation’s wealth, the whole language is absolutely ingrained in certain downmarket white English culture and it was a remarkably offensive thing to say to any BAME person. It is a message has been sprayed on the walls of English towns and cities by racists/white supremacists for as long as I’ve been alive. It is a reason I stand so firmly against nationalism, borders etc.

PS I have absolutely zero time for Patel, I think her extreme far-right politics are utterly repugnant, murderously so in some cases, but I would stand with her on this particular issue. As ever play the broad topic, not the person.
 
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This is an interesting linguistic point. FWIW I don't attach that racist meaning to the words "deport" or "deportation", perhaps because of my own experience. I've been deported once (by Oman) for not having the right visa in my passport, and been threatened with the same by other countries, not only in the Middle East. It's just a risk of very frequent international travel. Also, a lot of people in occupied Europe were deported by the Nazis and their puppet regimes all around Europe, i.e. taken from their home countries to work and/or die in camps elsewhere in Central or Eastern Europe. IOW, white Europeans deporting other white Europeans, with the other place certainly not "more their place" .

I understand why using the word "deport" in connection with a minister like Priti Patel could be considered a poor choice of words. But I understand the reflex: Ms Patel has been very focused on deporting others, and one could wish, for a fleeting second, that she would reflect on that versus her family's experience before pressing that "Deport" button.
And choosing to press that deport button when she did; at dawn, on a raid, during Eid.
 
I think for some of us who grew up in the 80s it resonates of the National Front and ‘send them home’. I find it hard to believe that someone aiming for high office would post something inflammatory on social media and not pause to think it through. It suggests they’re not ready for high office. If Boris had posted ‘Sadiq Khan should be deported’ there would be massive howls of racism. Whether you like/dislike the protagonists it’s not acceptable. I personally find it hard to believe that some people are happy to justify his behaviour as an unfortunate error. It was crass stupidity pure and simple in my opinion.
I agree the term itself has inescapably racist connotations in the British context, regardless of who it’s aimed at. There was a chant about deporting Theresa May that was popular at left wing demos for a while before people realised that, err...it was a bit off.

It’s also a racist thing to say regardless of intent. But precisely because these things go beyond individual intent absolutely nobody is on top of all of them. Anyone whose job is to communicate in public and doesn’t filter everything through an attentive PR machine is sooner or later going to say something stupid.

The right possess a small industry dedicated to scanning all left wing discourse for these lapses and maximising the attention given to them. At the same time we have a weak left with limited experience in leadership roles. The right also possess an industry dedicated to burying lapses on their own side, and they have lots of leadership experience.

Given this kind of asymmetry I think the left have to use their judgment. Sometimes the scanning industry throws up “patterns of behaviour” where you have to say, "OK, this guy either has a problem or needs to be kept away from any role that involves communication". Other times it's more reasonable to say, "Well, that's a lapse: what's a proportionate response?" If the left keep up a zero tolerance approach to enforcing standards that apply to absolutely nobody else they're just going to run out of leaders.
 
I think for some of us who grew up in the 80s it resonates of the National Front and ‘send them home’.

Yes, that's exactly the note it struck for me too.

And just to echo a point made further upthread - I've seen colleagues escorted out the building for sending an inappropriate but less offensive text or email.
 
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If the left keep up a zero tolerance approach to enforcing standards that apply to absolutely nobody else they're just going to run out of leaders.
At that point it will be...

... time for Tony Blair. ;)


Seriously, excellent post. Strong "taking a knife to a gunfight" vibes in some of the liberal and soft-left takes I've read.
 
I think for some of us who grew up in the 80s it resonates of the National Front and ‘send them home’. I find it hard to believe that someone aiming for high office would post something inflammatory on social media and not pause to think it through. It suggests they’re not ready for high office. If Boris had posted ‘Sadiq Khan should be deported’ there would be massive howls of racism. Whether you like/dislike the protagonists it’s not acceptable. I personally find it hard to believe that some people are happy to justify his behaviour as an unfortunate error. It was crass stupidity pure and simple in my opinion.
I actually think Mullardman was merely contrasting how the two parties would have dealt with the situation. Labour has acted swiftly & suspended the person whereas the Tories would just just shrug their shoulders & move on. I actually find the left wing apologists just as bad in this instance.

It was a poor choice of words, just as RLB was ill-advised to re-tweet an article in which Maxine Peake used a borderline AS trope. These are professional politicians & they should know better.
 
At that point it will be...

... time for Tony Blair. ;)


Seriously, excellent post. Strong "taking a knife to a gunfight" vibes in some of the liberal and soft-left takes I've read.
Haha, yes absolutely - Tony Blair marks a very precise dividing line: to the left, people whose speech and behaviour must conform to the highest possible standards at all times, on pain of being excluded from public life. To the right: “War crimes? Work away mate: after all, lose lose lose win win win lose lose amirite?!”

I mean:
I actually think Mullardman was merely contrasting how the two parties would have dealt with the situation. Labour has acted swiftly & suspended the person whereas the Tories would just just shrug their shoulders & move on. I actually find the left wing apologists just as bad in this instance.

It was a poor choice of words, just as RLB was ill-advised to re-tweet an article in which Maxine Peake used a borderline AS trope. These are professional politicians & they should know better.

Couple of pages back Woody literally said something like “Iraq? Yawn!” Now wagging his finger over people daring to question whether or not a hamfisted tweet requires blanket condemnation and the termination of a political career!
 
Haha, yes absolutely - Tony Blair marks a very precise dividing line: to the left, people whose speech and behaviour must conform to the highest possible standards at all times, on pain of being excluded from public life. To the right: “War crimes? Work away mate: after all, lose lose lose win win win lose lose amirite?!”
On that point, it's worth remembering that (as far as I know) only one prominent Labour figure has questioned the key recommendations of the EHRC report.

His name is Peter Mandelson.

As it happens, I think he has a point, but it's striking that: (a) his comment contradicts the central recommendation of the report; (b) it received zero media coverage.
 
On that point, it's worth remembering that (as far as I know) only one prominent Labour figure has questioned the key recommendations of the EHRC report.

His name is Peter Mandelson.

As it happens, I think he has a point, but it's striking that: (a) his comment contradicts the central recommendation of the report; (b) it received zero media coverage.
Does Mandelson get any media coverage? He’s yesterday’s man; if it was someone from the current top table then, yes, I would expect more coverage.
 
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