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Better than Tannoys...?

I don't find my Mk1 Ardens harsh at the top end. They are however very revealing and unforgiving of both poor recordings and any kit that's a bit harsh upstream of them.

The only other thing I'd add beyond the excellent comments already posted here is that unlike many/most speakers they're designed to be listened to a bit off axis (I believe Tannoy recommend 15 degrees ). Having them firing directly at you makes them sound brighter/more forward.

I personally find the -1 energy setting a shade too lifeless but this will vary from room to room, system to system and of course individual tastes.
 
They are fairly neutral too, though not perfectly so, but any room will mess with the perceived neutrality way more than the speakers’ presentation would.

I'm afraid to say but this is far from neutral:


That is a common excuse for bad speaker designs. A very none linear speaker will even sound worse through the influence of the room. A relative linear speaker is the basic requirement for a good sound reproduction IMO (EDIT: This sentence isn't directed to the Arden Legacy!).

BTW: The raised bass FQ will cover the HF without a doubt and because most (all) rooms dampen the HF way more than the BF and therefore you will have even less HF.

Again, honestly! I don't have anything against the Arden Legacy. I would consider them for a bigger living room too because I like speakers which can do scale. So I'm very curious to hear one even if they don't fit in my tiny 14sqm room but it doesn't make any sense to hide the facts.:)
 
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That is a common excuse for bad speaker designs. A very none linear speaker will even sound worse through the influence of the room. A relative linear speaker is the basic requirement for a good sound reproduction IMO.
BTW: The raised bass FQ will cover the HF without a doubt and because most (all) rooms dampen the HF way more than the BF and therefore you will have even less HF.

Again, honestly! I don't have anything against the Arden Legacy. I would consider them for a bigger living room too because I like speakers which can do scale. So I'm very curious to hear one even if they don't fit in my tiny 14sqm room but it doesn't make any sense to hide the facts.:)

Before you make claims about a speaker's lack of neutrality, talk about bad speaker design and make statements like "it doesn't make any sense to hide the facts", in my opinion, you really ought to listen to the speakers first.

That aside, please don't assume that Tannoys won't work in your room just because your room is small. If you can audition a pair at home you really should. You might get a pleasant surprise. Big Tannoys and big JBLs can work very well in small rooms. Certainly, Japanese audiophiles appear to squeeze them to small spaces quite successfully. Closer to home, here's an example of a well known member's Lockwoods in a room that I believe is considerably smaller than yours:

v2RCs9.jpg
 
I think its safe to assume you can't comment on the sound of a loudspeaker if you haven't heard it.
FWIW going buy the blurry markings on that graph the Arden on axis response is +/-3dB from 45 to 20khz , exactly the response spec of the (obviously far from neutral) Harbeth C7ES3....
 
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Harsh treble is what some other people get out of Tannoys IME. I’ve heard it, but never in my own system or in a recording studio. My guess is they’ve either cranked the driver basket and/or compression driver down to something approaching ‘Linn tight’, are using some really strange high-mass cabinets, some after-market “audiophile” crossovers, are playing way too loud, or are using an entirely inappropriate amp.

They really aren’t bright or harsh at all, and I have mine set ‘level’ ‘level’!

PS They are a proper monitor speaker in the truest sense of the word, so will obviously show up crap upstream. A brickwalled Red Hot Chilli Pappers CD will sound like a brickwalled Red Hot Chilli Peppers CD. Music with zero/binary dynamics tends to be ruthlessly exposed on any speakers with real headroom.
 
@cooky1257 : The on axis response goes from 88dB at 1kHz up to 97dB @4kHz = +/-4.5dB = 9dB sum.

I don't have a measurement plot from my C7 XD but from the C7 40th.A.E. from the same magazine.
harbeth-compact-7es-3-anniversary-lautsprecher-stereo-59037.jpg

The on axis response goes from 84dB at 5.5kHz up to 88dB @150Hz = +/-2dB = 4dB sum.

It also makes a big difference if you have a falling frequency response with small peaks and bumps or a big suck out around 5dB over

I can't say how a speaker will sound exactly but I can say if it will be neutral or not if I have a good frequency response chart (and even better RTA 60 measurement).:)

BTW: I didn't say that the C7 is neutral.;)

@hermit For safety! I didn't call the Tannoy Arden Legacy a bad speaker design (see the EDIT).:) I said the phrase from JTC is often used for bad speaker designs (most of the time from the designer). That isn't the same.

I don't believe a big speaker like the Arden will work out in room sizes like mine. If such big speakers in a very small room make you happy, I'm happy for you. But I know what I like and I have used bigger speakers before in this room which made even more trouble than the small C7 XD. Even they cause a big room mode bump at 37Hz about 15db, the bigger speaker with a 25cm driver peaked the mode at 37Hz up to 25dB!

I know what some guys from Asia are doing. :) I really don't want to be rude so I'm only going to say that it doesn't make any sense to me and I bet I won't like the sound but everybody is free to do what ever he wants in audio. Again, I don't mean it in an offensive way.:)
 
That response plot for the Arden Legacy came as surprise to me tbh and I have to say I am suspicious of how the unit was measured.
The plots of both the System 15 and the Churchill which use the same 15" tulip hf drive unit are far smoother-I can't be arsed to post as my point is you cannot assess how a speaker will sound by looking at an on axis response graph as it doesn't tell you anything like enough..you need to listen.

System 15
51177449448_ea9b4c788c_c.jpg


Crossover is essentially the same as the Legacy Arden.

A more realistic OP title would be 'Coaxial/Concentric drivers better than Tannoys..apparently the Beyma sourced Fyne Audio TOTL unit is very good, as are the current KEF 50 variants. Then there's Altec and Urei, some Chinese DC knock-offs from Art-something to consider .....
 
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Oh I see, ok thanks ;-)
In the case of a dual concentric you are, above the xover freq at least, measuring a horn/compression driver, there will be some edge diffraction variation from the different enclosure /baffle arrangements but these are horn termination effects that shouldn't impact the response to the extent illustrated in the plots. The Arden crossover is the same as the System 15 (with added tone adjustment), It's a simple 3.9uF series capacitor plus padding resistors on the HF .
 
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@cooky1257 : The on axis response goes from 88dB at 1kHz up to 97dB @4kHz = +/-4.5dB = 9dB sum.

I don't have a measurement plot from my C7 XD but from the C7 40th.A.E. from the same magazine.
harbeth-compact-7es-3-anniversary-lautsprecher-stereo-59037.jpg

The on axis response goes from 84dB at 5.5kHz up to 88dB @150Hz = +/-2dB = 4dB sum.

It also makes a big difference if you have a falling frequency response with small peaks and bumps or a big suck out around 5dB over

I can't say how a speaker will sound exactly but I can say if it will be neutral or not if I have a good frequency response chart (and even better RTA 60 measurement).:)

BTW: I didn't say that the C7 is neutral.;)

@hermit For safety! I didn't call the Tannoy Arden Legacy a bad speaker design (see the EDIT).:) I said the phrase from JTC is often used for bad speaker designs (most of the time from the designer). That isn't the same.

I don't believe a big speaker like the Arden will work out in room sizes like mine. If such big speakers in a very small room make you happy, I'm happy for you. But I know what I like and I have used bigger speakers before in this room which made even more trouble than the small C7 XD. Even they cause a big room mode bump at 37Hz about 15db, the bigger speaker with a 25cm driver peaked the mode at 37Hz up to 25dB!

I know what some guys from Asia are doing. :) I really don't want to be rude so I'm only going to say that it doesn't make any sense to me and I bet I won't like the sound but everybody is free to do what ever he wants in audio. Again, I don't mean it in an offensive way.:)

My 2 cents, for what it's worth:

@hermit uses my old Tannoy Lockwoods and, although I haven't personally heard them in his room, I know other pfm members who have heard them and they all say the sound great, and I have no reason to doubt this.

I, on the other hand, couldn't get them to behave well enough in my 4.2m x 3.8m room without resorting to DSP to smooth out the response, not just the bass but also the mids (the upper mids needed boosting a bit). I didn't need to DSP the treble because I was listening off-axis (speakers flat against the wall), but if I was listening on-axis then I would have used DSP to roll off the rising treble too. :)

My main axial length room mode is around 43Hz but this issue is simple to deal with even when I place speakers close to the front wall, I simply pull my listening seat forward (away from the rear wall) until the mode flattens. If I wasn't able to move my seat forward, a similar result could be easily achieved with EQ. Also, I'm almost certain the Lockwood's bass started rolling-off from 50Hz, perhaps even higher, so it didn't excite my 43Hz mode as much as a speaker with deeper bass extension, such as a big IMF transmission line. However, the Lockwood's produced a lot more output in my room between 50Hz-90Hz than my smaller Tannoys and I found this too overwhelming at my typical listening levels (75dBC average) unless I reduced it with EQ. More generally, I also found the presentation a bit too "big and in your face" for my size of room; my listening seat was a little over 2 metres from the speakers and, with a 15" Tannoy pepperpot DC, I think you need greater distance for a more relaxed presentation. That is of course just my observation.

The other point I'm trying to make is every room is different, even rooms that have seemingly identical dimensions can be excited in very different ways depending on their fabrication and what is above and beneath them. My room has 30cm thick brick walls, suspended wood floor, and lathe & plaster ceiling. There is another room above and another room below. Luckily I have never experienced a room mode anywhere near as high as +25dB peak, so you have my sympathy if that's what you have to deal with. If it's really that bad and you cannot improve it by moving your listening seat then it's probably worth investing in some Helmholtz resonators or using parametric EQ to notch out 37Hz, otherwise you may be stuck with buying speakers with an early LF rolloff.
 
@hermit uses my old Tannoy Lockwoods and, although I haven't personally heard them in his room, I know other pfm members who have heard them and they all say the sound great, and I have no reason to doubt this.

I have to say it was a lucky day for me when you decided the Lockwoods weren't working in your room and it was time to part with them. With lockdown being lifted from Monday you're very welcome to come and hear for yourself how they perform in my room. It would be a real pleasure for me but from your perspective I wonder if it would be bittersweet experience perhaps a bit like seeing a former girlfriend happy in her new relationship.
 
My 2 cents, for what it's worth:

@hermit uses my old Tannoy Lockwoods and, although I haven't personally heard them in his room, I know other pfm members who have heard them and they all say the sound great, and I have no reason to doubt this.

I, on the other hand, couldn't get them to behave well enough in my 4.2m x 3.8m room without resorting to DSP to smooth out the response, not just the bass but also the mids (the upper mids needed boosting a bit). I didn't need to DSP the treble because I was listening off-axis (speakers flat against the wall), but if I was listening on-axis then I would have used DSP to roll off the rising treble too. :)

My main axial length room mode is around 43Hz but this issue is simple to deal with even when I place speakers close to the front wall, I simply pull my listening seat forward (away from the rear wall) until the mode flattens. If I wasn't able to move my seat forward, a similar result could be easily achieved with EQ. Also, I'm almost certain the Lockwood's bass started rolling-off from 50Hz, perhaps even higher, so it didn't excite my 43Hz mode as much as a speaker with deeper bass extension, such as a big IMF transmission line. However, the Lockwood's produced a lot more output in my room between 50Hz-90Hz than my smaller Tannoys and I found this too overwhelming at my typical listening levels (75dBC average) unless I reduced it with EQ. More generally, I also found the presentation a bit too "big and in your face" for my size of room; my listening seat was a little over 2 metres from the speakers and, with a 15" Tannoy pepperpot DC, I think you need greater distance for a more relaxed presentation. That is of course just my observation.

The other point I'm trying to make is every room is different, even rooms that have seemingly identical dimensions can be excited in very different ways depending on their fabrication and what is above and beneath them. My room has 30cm thick brick walls, suspended wood floor, and lathe & plaster ceiling. There is another room above and another room below. Luckily I have never experienced a room mode anywhere near as high as +25dB peak, so you have my sympathy if that's what you have to deal with. If it's really that bad and you cannot improve it by moving your listening seat then it's probably worth investing in some Helmholtz resonators or using parametric EQ to notch out 37Hz, otherwise you may be stuck with buying speakers with an early LF rolloff.

I am not surprised you had to do all that using speakers that large in that size of room. You are always going to have energy problems to deal with... :rolleyes:
 
I have to say it was a lucky day for me when you decided the Lockwoods weren't working in your room and it was time to part with them. With lockdown being lifted from Monday you're very welcome to come and hear for yourself how they perform in my room. It would be a real pleasure for me but from your perspective I wonder if it would be bittersweet experience perhaps a bit like seeing a former girlfriend happy in her new relationship.
Thanks for the offer, Paul, I'll to take you up on it, eventually. I've been shielding since last March and have still to receive my second jab so I'm still a bit too fear't to venture out at the moment!...

You're lucky the Lockwoods were so big as that was a major factor in moving them on, - had they been a little more inconspicuous I may have gotten away with squirrelling them away but my hoard of hifi was way OTT (it still is to be fair!). I'm glad they've gone to an appreciative home. :)
 
My guess is they’ve either cranked the driver basket and/or compression driver down to something approaching ‘Linn tight’
Wow, Linn are now responsible for Tannoys sounding bad. What next? Brexit responsible for premature cartridge wear?

FWIW, I never found Tannoys to be harsh in the top end. Lacking extension in the top, certainly, but not harsh.
I think my biggest concern with them is the rather uncontrolled and slow bottom end. Though ive probably never heard them correctly set up with the right amplifiers.
 
Thanks for the offer, Paul, I'll to take you up on it, eventually. I've been shielding since last March and have still to receive my second jab so I'm still a bit too fear't to venture out at the moment!...

That's completely understandable Richard. Much better to wait until you're fully vaccinated and feel confident to venture out. Please just drop me a pm when you're ready and we'll go from there.
 
I had 15" Tannoy DMT and Proac D48R now... Proacs are so much better-amazing actually...
Seems the Proacs with new ribbon tweeters are way to go. Every one of them(I had D2 as well).
 
Wow, Linn are now responsible for Tannoys sounding bad. What next? Brexit responsible for premature cartridge wear?

Just a turn of phrase to illustrate over-tightening. Anyone with experience of 80s UK audio will have seen tonearms etc destroyed by dealers using absurd levels of force etc. It may not ever have been what Linn themselves meant, but it is a useful phrase IMO.

The classic London-era Tannoy drivers were all designed to be mounted from the back of a baffle. They have a compliant damping felt (Silvers, Reds etc) or rubber (Golds) front face for this purpose. The cabinets of their era always had grille cloth. To my mind the idea they are bright or harsh is modern revisionism and comes from cranking them down hard to the front of a high-rigidity DIY cabinets and using them without grilles. This is simply not how they were ever intended to be used and they inevitably sound a lot different in this context. I view them the same way as LS3/5As etc in that they are voiced for a certain type of baffle and grille.
 


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