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Ireland; the centenary of Partition

Quote of the day from Prof. Diarmid Ferriter (UCD) in the latest of what is shaping up to be an outstanding series of talks on Partition: former Taoiseach Jack Lynch was asked what he would do it the British were to offer him Northern Ireland on a plate. His reply, "Faint".

This one emphasised the ignorance (often wilful) of the South about the North. A new minister of Foreign Affairs entered Iveagh House in Dublin, where the Department lives. "Where's the Northern Ireland desk?" he asked. "There isn't one," was the reply.

The way these talks are taking a sledgehammer to all the old myths and misconceptions is truly wonderful.
 
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Thanks for all the snippets and links, Tones et al. Very educational for distant observers with an interest but not much background, as I am.
 
For anyone who can access it, an excellent article by Fintan O'Toole in today's Irish Times:

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/...pluralism-we-have-to-let-it-back-in-1.4550117

There are two ways of thinking about the partition of Ireland 100 years ago. One is as a realist drama – the working out of the inevitable consequence of ruptures that were already irreconcilable. The other is to see it as a tragedy – the destruction of all the finest hopes for what Irish independence might have meant.

The first of these interpretations sits well with Ulster unionism; the second with Irish nationalism. But the choice between them is false. Partition was both an inevitability and a tragedy. We can surely, after a century of living with it, accept that the division of the island was at once unavoidable and calamitous.

What may be more difficult to accept is that it also suited an awful lot of people, not just in the new polity of Northern Ireland, but in the other entity that emerged shortly afterwards south of the Border. It was possible both to rail against partition and to live quite happily with the distribution of power it created and sustained.

That's an interesting thought re who stood to gain from partition, in the south. It's often pointed out how the relative positions of the 2 parts of the island have shifted since partition, with the south now a country that isn't in thrall to church & rural activities, whereas all of the large northern industrial concerns have gone. So I suppose if partition hadn't happened, the north would've been the powerhouse of the island, and consequently the focus of economic & political power. Perhaps a case could've been made for Belfast to be the capital of the country, given it's rapid expansion in the previous half century or so?
I'll definitely explore the QUB site you linked to, thanks.
 
That's an interesting thought re who stood to gain from partition, in the south. It's often pointed out how the relative positions of the 2 parts of the island have shifted since partition, with the south now a country that isn't in thrall to church & rural activities, whereas all of the large northern industrial concerns have gone. So I suppose if partition hadn't happened, the north would've been the powerhouse of the island, and consequently the focus of economic & political power. Perhaps a case could've been made for Belfast to be the capital of the country, given it's rapid expansion in the previous half century or so?
I'll definitely explore the QUB site you linked to, thanks.

The second talk by Prof. Mary Daly is short, only 10 minutes, but interesting on the advantages of Partition to Ireland. She quotes Michael Collins's belief that the establishment of the Irish Free State "gave us the freedom to achieve freedom". She opines that, without Partition, the Irish Republic might not have happened. I think that these talks are going to be an absolute treasure trove for anyone interested in the subject. I would love to think that they will inform debate on both sides of the Border and in Westminster and in the search for reasonable solutions to the problems of Ireland, but given the fondness for ancient entrenched positions and the attachment to simplistic solutions, I'm not optimistic.

I live in Switzerland, and I wonder whether it could be a model for Ireland. Switzerland's cantons are fiercely independent, and they run nearly everything, surrendering very little to Bern, which gets to run foreign affairs, the military and precious little else. Most of the tax collected in Switzerland goes to the cantons, not to the Federal Government. Perhaps two cantons in Ireland, essentially self-governing, with a small central government in Dublin? This is a drastic change from the current Dublin set-up, but any change that incorporates the Unionists' desire to continue to identify as British is going to have to be drastic.
 
This one emphasised the ignorance (often wilful) of the South about the North. A new minister of Foreign Affairs entered Iveagh House in Dublin, where the Department lives. "Where's the Northern Ireland desk?" he asked. "There isn't one," was the reply.
Until 1998, the constitution of the Republic did not recognise the legitimacy of Northern Ireland as a country, and in earlier years this wilful denial was everywhere.

On the Swiss system: In his retirement, the former taoiseach of the republic of Ireland, Garret FitzGerald, proposed a federal system for a United Ireland, but modelled on the early medieval kingdoms as a way of resolving the problem of Northern Ireland. Thus there would be Munster, Connacht, (a nine-county) Ulster and Leinster, but the fifth province, in place of the old Tara would be Dublin. Each would have had lesser powers than a Swiss canton, more like a German Land , with a smaller Irish national government over them.
 
Until 1998, the constitution of the Republic did not recognise the legitimacy of Northern Ireland as a country, and in earlier years this wilful denial was everywhere.

On the Swiss system: In his retirement, the former taoiseach of the republic of Ireland, Garret FitzGerald, proposed a federal system for a United Ireland, but modelled on the early medieval kingdoms as a way of resolving the problem of Northern Ireland. Thus there would be Munster, Connacht, (a nine-county) Ulster and Leinster, but the fifth province, in place of the old Tara would be Dublin. Each would have had lesser powers than a Swiss canton, more like a German Land , with a smaller Irish national government over them.
I could see that working, I know there's a lot of discontent in 'the south' regarding some of the Dublin-centric policies enacted by the government, so this would alleviate some of that. It would also allay some unionist fears about representation in a new Ireland, as well as 'even out' the orange/green population split by including the 3 Ulster counties not in NI. Problem with this model is it would mean politicians having to cede power, something for which they are not renowned, regardless of where they are.
 
Until 1998, the constitution of the Republic did not recognise the legitimacy of Northern Ireland as a country, and in earlier years this wilful denial was everywhere.

On the Swiss system: In his retirement, the former taoiseach of the republic of Ireland, Garret FitzGerald, proposed a federal system for a United Ireland, but modelled on the early medieval kingdoms as a way of resolving the problem of Northern Ireland. Thus there would be Munster, Connacht, (a nine-county) Ulster and Leinster, but the fifth province, in place of the old Tara would be Dublin. Each would have had lesser powers than a Swiss canton, more like a German Land , with a smaller Irish national government over them.
I did think of the ancient Irish provinces as a basis, but I wonder whether Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan would be happy in a province in which a substantial proportion of the population identified as British. After all, the three counties were omitted from the new statelet in the 1921 settlement, because they were seen as Catholic/Nationalist. Of course, so were substantial slices of Tyrone and Fermanagh, and the original settlement actually contained provisions for a border revision, but this never came to pass, probably because of the Irish civil war that followed Partition.

P.S. I'm not a rugby fan (my brother is, and follows Ulster to all the matches). I like the fact that "Ulster" really does mean Ulster, and that the rugby team called Ireland represents the whole island.
 
Living in Ireland, a long story complete with 2 weeks quarentine on entry to Scotland and two weeks on the return.... So Im still here.

Nearly 18 months of confinment to 1 mile from homerule just ended.

My sense as a Scot from Nicolas 'Im not from the land of lesbos' Sturgeon to being stuck here somewhat for a 3 years is thatbthere is no revolutionary appreciation or rebellious instinct left in public life here or in anyone I have met outside of uTube.

All that was fought for went away and its a corporately owned state sold off to whoever asks. Initially Agri Pharma then Big Tech, all of whom get tax breaks to come and now CCP owns the national dock infrastructure as far as I understand it.

I see there are people whomwork in Multinationals and the government and they keep on living on the hog and then theres the self employed and very small family businesses.....and huge numbers of dole dodgers now even fudged with furlough payments of 350/week

education is as dull as ditchwater for children i meet and bendover backward degrees are freely available but the revolutionary authors and thinkers are not taught in schools etc.

that EU blandness is everywhere and some 800 million€ EU Greek bailout debt was awarded to Ireland for being so rich?

This will take some 3 generations to clear if ever then - additionally theres the usual viral spend spend spend policy and the leaders took it for the EU no problemo.

The irish system isnt connected with the rebellion or its aspirations anymore and its euroblandness led to the most repressive lockdown in the EU for the longest time with no excessive deaths etc.Knowingba little of Padraic Pearses visionary ideas what the Irish state has done ina 100 years is hard to see except to loose itself in the EU.

Im amazed that Ireland isnt so Irish as I recall from before the Tiger years

atavistic types arent hard to find but they have few political representatives or free spirits in government. Its so bland that the present prime minister wasnt even voted into office and hea been at the top of a pointless heap for a long time. They arent thinking about being free yet and arent encouraging freedom institutionaly and by and large the state is runn by EU troughfeeders.

All this preamble is to say that no one except political hacks has any interest in absorbing the North

no one even talks about it outside of column inches and often fake nationalists like Sturgeon who wave the shibboleth but only pretend to be seen to be going for it.

Like SNP - Sinn Fein are crazy woke but no one is going to overcome the advantages of the North to the Southern Irish and the Chinese agree with me on this.

Rural ireland is still lovely but politics here is brain dead and more obviously corrupt than I am used too, mostly via dispersement of EU funds and family connections
 
the present prime minister wasnt even voted into office
I think you'll find that he was; as one of the four TDs elected by the electors of the Cork South Central constituency.
 
Living in Ireland, a long story complete with 2 weeks quarentine on entry to Scotland and two weeks on the return.... So Im still here.

Nearly 18 months of confinment to 1 mile from homerule just ended.

My sense as a Scot from Nicolas 'Im not from the land of lesbos' Sturgeon to being stuck here somewhat for a 3 years is thatbthere is no revolutionary appreciation or rebellious instinct left in public life here or in anyone I have met outside of uTube.

All that was fought for went away and its a corporately owned state sold off to whoever asks. Initially Agri Pharma then Big Tech, all of whom get tax breaks to come and now CCP owns the national dock infrastructure as far as I understand it.

I see there are people whomwork in Multinationals and the government and they keep on living on the hog and then theres the self employed and very small family businesses.....and huge numbers of dole dodgers now even fudged with furlough payments of 350/week

education is as dull as ditchwater for children i meet and bendover backward degrees are freely available but the revolutionary authors and thinkers are not taught in schools etc.

that EU blandness is everywhere and some 800 million€ EU Greek bailout debt was awarded to Ireland for being so rich?

This will take some 3 generations to clear if ever then - additionally theres the usual viral spend spend spend policy and the leaders took it for the EU no problemo.

The irish system isnt connected with the rebellion or its aspirations anymore and its euroblandness led to the most repressive lockdown in the EU for the longest time with no excessive deaths etc.Knowingba little of Padraic Pearses visionary ideas what the Irish state has done ina 100 years is hard to see except to loose itself in the EU.

Im amazed that Ireland isnt so Irish as I recall from before the Tiger years

atavistic types arent hard to find but they have few political representatives or free spirits in government. Its so bland that the present prime minister wasnt even voted into office and hea been at the top of a pointless heap for a long time. They arent thinking about being free yet and arent encouraging freedom institutionaly and by and large the state is runn by EU troughfeeders.

All this preamble is to say that no one except political hacks has any interest in absorbing the North

no one even talks about it outside of column inches and often fake nationalists like Sturgeon who wave the shibboleth but only pretend to be seen to be going for it.

Like SNP - Sinn Fein are crazy woke but no one is going to overcome the advantages of the North to the Southern Irish and the Chinese agree with me on this.

Rural ireland is still lovely but politics here is brain dead and more obviously corrupt than I am used too, mostly via dispersement of EU funds and family connections

Pretty incendiary stuff. Not an Ireland I recognise but it’s always interesting to hear outsiders opinions.

What do you mean by this though?

Im amazed that Ireland isnt so Irish as I recall from before the Tiger years

.sjb
 
Pretty incendiary stuff. Not an Ireland I recognise but it’s always interesting to hear outsiders opinions.

What do you mean by this though?

Im amazed that Ireland isnt so Irish as I recall from before the Tiger years

.sjb
Perhaps he misses Éamon's comely maidens dancing at the crossroads, because they've all joined Molly Malone in Dublin's fair city.
 
Living in Ireland, a long story complete with 2 weeks quarentine on entry to Scotland and two weeks on the return.... So Im still here.

Nearly 18 months of confinment to 1 mile from homerule just ended.

My sense as a Scot from Nicolas 'Im not from the land of lesbos' Sturgeon to being stuck here somewhat for a 3 years is thatbthere is no revolutionary appreciation or rebellious instinct left in public life here or in anyone I have met outside of uTube.

All that was fought for went away and its a corporately owned state sold off to whoever asks. Initially Agri Pharma then Big Tech, all of whom get tax breaks to come and now CCP owns the national dock infrastructure as far as I understand it.

I see there are people whomwork in Multinationals and the government and they keep on living on the hog and then theres the self employed and very small family businesses.....and huge numbers of dole dodgers now even fudged with furlough payments of 350/week

education is as dull as ditchwater for children i meet and bendover backward degrees are freely available but the revolutionary authors and thinkers are not taught in schools etc.

that EU blandness is everywhere and some 800 million€ EU Greek bailout debt was awarded to Ireland for being so rich?

This will take some 3 generations to clear if ever then - additionally theres the usual viral spend spend spend policy and the leaders took it for the EU no problemo.

The irish system isnt connected with the rebellion or its aspirations anymore and its euroblandness led to the most repressive lockdown in the EU for the longest time with no excessive deaths etc.Knowingba little of Padraic Pearses visionary ideas what the Irish state has done ina 100 years is hard to see except to loose itself in the EU.

Im amazed that Ireland isnt so Irish as I recall from before the Tiger years

atavistic types arent hard to find but they have few political representatives or free spirits in government. Its so bland that the present prime minister wasnt even voted into office and hea been at the top of a pointless heap for a long time. They arent thinking about being free yet and arent encouraging freedom institutionaly and by and large the state is runn by EU troughfeeders.

All this preamble is to say that no one except political hacks has any interest in absorbing the North

no one even talks about it outside of column inches and often fake nationalists like Sturgeon who wave the shibboleth but only pretend to be seen to be going for it.

Like SNP - Sinn Fein are crazy woke but no one is going to overcome the advantages of the North to the Southern Irish and the Chinese agree with me on this.

Rural ireland is still lovely but politics here is brain dead and more obviously corrupt than I am used too, mostly via dispersement of EU funds and family connections

I'd say that's a not totally unreasonable analysis Ian.

The Yoof see themselves as more European than previous generations, and also tend to see the current FF/FG lot as a bunch of self serving politicos who have had their day. How/ whether that plays into the hands of SF remains to be seen.
 
I don't think current generations see themselves as more European than their parents: their parents were the youth of the eighties, who were also strongly pro-European, and who benefitted more directly and clearly from EEC membership.

Polling also suggests that while young voters might see Fianna Fáil as a party of the past, they don't hold that view about Fine Gael, which has managed to retain a solid platform by mixing centre-right economics with progressive social policies.

SF, meanwhile, are becoming one of the big two parties in Irish politics (at FF's expense), but the Irish electoral system means that that being a big party is not enough. Parties rarely achieve majorities by themselves: coalition and compromise is needed, and SF simply does not do compromise. Their failure to form a government in 2020 despite holding the largest number of seats was a direct result of this policy. Their only hope is an outright majority, but they just do not have the support for that. (Winning lots of seats in Irish elections means encouraging other parties' voters to place you at least in the middle of their ballot choices - SF's brand of revolutionary populism really struggles to attract that kind of moderate support)
 
I don't think current generations see themselves as more European than their parents: their parents were the youth of the eighties, who were also strongly pro-European, and who benefitted more directly and clearly from EEC membership.

Yes, that's true.

In terms of the North-South divide - my kids look North, and are genuinely appalled at many of the closed minds on display (and in power). They see the North as reminiscent of the way the South might have been in the 1940s and 1950s. If there were to be a referendum on unification, I'm still not sure how the younger voters on this side would feel about trying to integrate with the considerable numbers of that mindset.
 
NI also has serious social problems that suit the two big parties, so have gone unaddressed for decades.

I would hope that the younger voters of NI would start to ditch the religious affiliation parties and vote in their own interest. The kid on the Falls has more in common with the kid on the Shankill than with anyone else in Belfast, and it's about time that they did something about fixing the problems instead of exploiting their anger for political ends.
 
NI also has serious social problems that suit the two big parties, so have gone unaddressed for decades.

I would hope that the younger voters of NI would start to ditch the religious affiliation parties and vote in their own interest. The kid on the Falls has more in common with the kid on the Shankill than with anyone else in Belfast, and it's about time that they did something about fixing the problems instead of exploiting their anger for political ends.
Sadly, those kids are among the casualties of policy failures, both up North and in Westminster, in that so many are unemployed, and, as the old saying goes, the Devil makes work for idle hands. In a way, economic prosperity and full employment for the North would hurt both of the extremists tribes badly, so, while they may talk the talk, walking the walk would be detrimental to their narrow, parochial interests.
 
Bluntly, I consider both NI parties to be parasites. Consciously or unconsciously they choose to ignore the economic and political causes of their constituents' troubles and instead blame it on the other side.

The NI Assembly has sectarianism hard-wired into it, unfortunately, in the rules for power-sharing where there must be a Nationalist and a Unionist faction in government, even if (hypothetically) most voters went for a neutral coalition.
 


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