Tone Poet Blue Notes

[Tony L]

Amazon are pretty good in fairness. Their key advantage is they do their own logistics, so even if the packaging isn’t even remotely logical in many cases it just doesn’t go through the mass distribution hubs of the Royal Mail, or worse Yodel, Hermes etc (one of which delivered these Tone Poets). You need very good mailers to deal with any of the latter, and this was nothing more than a card wrapper.

 

[hermit]

During their sale, I bought and paid for Passing Ships on March 15th at the Bluenote UK store. I will not be happy if they have distributed copies to retailers but not fulfilled their orders from online customers who have pre-ordered and paid in advance. I have sent them an email enquiring into the current status of my order. I will be exceedingly unhappy if they have already sold out and I have to wait until they re-stock.

Two full working days later and my order is still marked pending. Worse, I have had no reply to my online enquiry made on Sunday. With that level of service they'll get no further business from me. I already ordered One Flight Up from Juno in preference to the Blue Note Store. It's been dispatched and I expect it will be with me tomorrow. Proper service.

 

[banjoman]

Currently sitting here somewhat gob-smacked at the title track of Passing Ships! Crikey it’s good isn’t it?!

Its fantastic and reminds me a lot of Hancock's 'Maiden Voyage' title track from the Music Matters remaster - both in terms of musical feel and mastering

 

[Tony L]

Couldn’t help but have a quick listen…. and I go against the pack and prefer the Cisco! Not much in it, both sound superb, but to my ears the TP has a bit too much ‘smiley face’ eq and pushes the bass and ride cymbal a bit too much. The Cisco is just a little more balanced and as such allows you more into the mid, and for me this record is all about the sax and snare, so that’s more to my taste. As such I’m less bothered if I get a refund or replacement now. Both are great though, if you had one I’d not actively seek out the other.

The side 2 scratch clicks too.

PS Obviously this is via the medium of absolutely gigantic Tannoys, I can well imagine thinking the reverse on typical stand-mounts.

 

[poco a poco]

I can't compare these two, but while I have found the Tone Poets and BN80's supberb in most respects I have thought the top end at least can be a little on the bright side on some as mastered by Kevin Gray especially in comparison where I have an earlier Van Gelder mastered pressing or even on a few Music Matters. Joe Harley of course claims that it is what is on the master tape is what he is trying to reproduce and not duplicating the original pressings. This mastering and pressing was not recorded or mastered by Van Gelder, although I believe he was supposed to have added a bit of reverb to the original master tape as he thought it too dry. You can hear it on Dexters sax. Overall to me it sounds about right in respect of balance.

All a bit subjective and system dependant of course.

 

[kjb]

Got my Blue Note order, but horribly packed (crap mailer, no corner protection) so they’ll be getting them back, OFU has a scratch right over side 2 too. Passing Ships is ok though.

What a pisser.I’m sorry to read that.

I had three records arrive today in a really sturdy 14 to15 inch square “box within a box”. The outer box would have a protected the inside box if it got dropped. Packaging really should not be a lottery, especially with records at this price.

I've only had one dodgy pressing from the Blue Note store - the Brian Blade BN80 which had very audible surface noise across all 4 sides. I e-mailed them and they sent a replacement next day . The replacement was just as bad. They ended up giving me a refund.

I hope you get the same quality of service but stories like this make me less likely to use them again. TBH I’d rather give my money the Honest Jons who have consistent high standards and service.

 

[kjb]

It’s interesting reading your comments about One Flight Up. It’s not a recording I know we’ll but the mix sounds quite quirky with the sax a little recessed and the snare and trumpet much more forward.It might be a bit of extra brightness as you suggest. I’ve only heard the record on Sonos or Spotify before but they sounded more evenly balanced. It’s a great record though even if the every hit of the snare sounds more forward than the other instruments - or the rest of the drum kit for that matter.

 

[Seanm]

It’s interesting reading your comments about One Flight Up. It’s not a recording I know we’ll but the mix sounds quite quirky with the sax a little recessed and the snare and trumpet much more forward.It might be a bit of extra brightness as you suggest. I’ve only heard the record on Sonos or Spotify before but they sounded more evenly balanced. It’s a great record though even if the every hit of the snare sounds more forward than the other instruments - or the rest of the drum kit for that matter.

It is quirky, isn't it. Despite sounding quite unnatural I think having the snare so upfront and insistent somehow works. And personally I like to have the bass right there where you can't miss it: bass feels a bit low and recessed to me on a fair few of these releases - not the mastering, I don't think, but the recording.

 

[Tony L]

I can't compare these two, but while I have found the Tone Poets and BN80's supberb in most respects I have thought the top end at least can be a little on the bright side on some as mastered by Kevin Gray especially in comparison where I have an earlier Van Gelder mastered pressing or even on a few Music Matters. Joe Harley of course claims that it is what is on the master tape is what he is trying to reproduce and not duplicating the original pressings.

For a long time now I’ve suspected that VanGelder kind of did his own noise reduction in that he recorded bright and then EQd back to natural at the cut stage dropping some hiss in the process. I certainly take original issue RVG-stamped vinyl as the benchmark as that is the full chain from recording to consumer with all the original artistic intent fresh and preserved. I have also yet to hear a reissue I personally think sounds better than a US original Blue Note or Impulse. I’d happily swap every single audiophile reissue I own for a first press in the same condition.

PS Just noticed someone lucky enough to own an original US pressing of One Flight Up on one of the Facebook jazz groups saying it smokes the TP. Unobtanium, especially in the UK, but I’d love to hear that copy!

 

[gavreid]

I'd have thought that the master tapes are probably pretty cream crackered to say the least. The old vinyl must surely be a point of reference at least...

 

[RickyC6]

But then we come back to the argument that first pressings were designed for a particular consumer market that wasn’t as err hifi sophisticated as what we are…

 

[kjb]

PS Just noticed someone lucky enough to own an original US pressing of One Flight Up on one of the Facebook jazz groups saying it smokes the TP. Unobtanium, especially in the UK, but I’d love to hear that copy!

I may well say that if I had a highly valuable original US press!

 

[Tony L]

But then we come back to the argument that first pressings were designed for a particular consumer market that wasn’t as err hifi sophisticated as what we are…

Not so sure. It’s an interesting topic, but my guess is even though it was at its core a black protest music I suspect much of the record buyers, like the record labels who financed, produced and marketed the albums, were a very comfortably-off white liberal/intellectual demographic. Worldwide too. I don’t think jazz vinyl was ever mass market beyond a few pop crossovers (Ella, Armstrong, Brubeck etc), plus it was obviously hugely hindered by the American apartheid of much of the era. I guess that is why so many musicians did so many tours across far more liberal European countries, Japan etc. My impression has always been that it was sold predominantly to the sort of people who likely had a very nice hi-fi, i.e. far closer to a classical demographic than rock n roll, pop etc. I may be wrong, but that is certainly the impression I’ve got. It is certainly the case in Europe, the UK, Japan etc.

 

[RickyC6]

Yeah I have to say I don’t really know the answer as I have so few first pressings and so little to compare them with.
My gut feel based on a stupidly small sample size is that…I doubt my (almost) 60 year old ears can differentiate massively between a US first press, a Japanese King issue, and a Tone Poet.
Just last night I was playing a few TPs and some Kings (all different titles) and then I dug out my only copy of Maiden Voyage which is a 90s “audiophile 180gm” thing. Suffice to say the latter is now in my out tray it was so poor.

 

[Tony L]

Yeah I have to say I don’t really know the answer as I have so few first pressings and so little to compare them with.

Likewise, I’ve got next to no 1st press Blue Note, I’m much better equipped with Impulse, I think I’ve got a good ten or more that are either 1st issue or at least early enough to have a RVG stamp.

That run-off stamp is what counts IMO, e.g. I’d assume a RVG-stamped Liberty or dark-blue label BN (of which I have a few) was ‘the’ sound. It also needed to be factored that many of these albums initially sold very few copies, so in some cases the original stampers were still in use a decade later. Apparently some of the rarer Blue Notes only sold a few hundred in their original pressing.

 

[poco a poco]

For a long time now I’ve suspected that VanGelder kind of did his own noise reduction in that he recorded bright and then EQd back to natural at the cut stage dropping some hiss in the process. I certainly take original issue RVG-stamped vinyl as the benchmark as that is the full chain from recording to consumer with all the original artistic intent fresh and preserved. I have also yet to hear a reissue I personally think sounds better than a US original Blue Note or Impulse. I’d happily swap every single audiophile reissue I own for a first press in the same condition.

PS Just noticed someone lucky enough to own an original US pressing of One Flight Up on one of the Facebook jazz groups saying it smokes the TP. Unobtanium, especially in the UK, but I’d love to hear that copy!

I'd have thought that the master tapes are probably pretty cream crackered to say the least. The old vinyl must surely be a point of reference at least...

As Ricky points out Van Gelder took into account the equipment being used at that time. Nearly all consumers had realatively poor turntables and cartridges that would almost certainly have problems tracking what was on the master tape if cut like that and the rest of their chain could almost certainly not reproduce it in any case.

According to Joe Harley many of the master tapes are still in suprisingly good condition, especially those on one tape type Van Gelder used. From listening to these, and he has listened to many. He says Van Gelder rolled off the bass and very high frequencies to allow for the equipment of the time when cutting the masters for release. I am pretty sure given his known diligence Van Gelder would have tested this theory out before doing this. I note what you say about noise reduction, but if Joe Harley is reproducing what is on the master tape then any increased hiss should be apparent. They don't seem in anyway excessive to me in this respect.

I also note your preference for originals, I don't have any Blue Notes originals (and way to expensive to buy now) just some early pressings that may be in a very few cases from the original metal work. I agree Originals in most cases are excellent and that may be, despite what I said above about the quality of the tapes, at least partially due to their 'freshness' when the metal work was made or it may just be a preference. When I have compared the few of the early pressings or in the case of Impulse where I do have a few originals I find it can go either way. I did note previously that I thought some of Kevin Gray's cut seemed a bit 'bright' to me, but that may be because I have become so used to what I expect to hear.

I think it may just come down whether we think the original LP's are an historically important document in themselves in representing the artists Music as most heard it at the time and since (and many do) or agree with Harley's opinion and approach that also has its supporters. I assume he thinks that better represents what the musicians were trying to convey. I often find myself caught between the two.

 

[Tony L]

As Ricky points out Van Gelder took into account the equipment being used at that time. Nearly all consumers had realatively poor turntables and cartridges that would almost certainly have problems tracking what was on the master tape if cut like that and the rest of their chain could not almost certainly not reproduce it in any case.

As stated I’m really not convinced by this. As an example Blue Note (and other jazz labels) catered for the emerging (expensive, middle class and up) stereo market right from the very start, they didn’t hang around until the mid-60s the way pop music tended to. To my mind it is likely a similar demographic to classical, or at least had sufficient numbers sold at that level to really care about audiophile sound quality.

PS Original US RVG cuts sound bloody amazing, they just have so much presence and power to them. He puts Coltrane etc right in the room like I’ve never heard any reissue do.

 

[kjb]

As Ricky points out Van Gelder took into account the equipment being used at that time. Nearly all consumers had realatively poor turntables and cartridges that would almost certainly have problems tracking what was on the master tape if cut like that and the rest of their chain could almost certainly not reproduce it in any case.

According to Joe Harley many of the master tapes are still in suprisingly good condition, especially those on one tape type Van Gelder used. From listening to these, and he has listened to many. He says Van Gelder rolled off the bass and very high frequencies to allow for the equipment of the time when cutting the masters for release. I am pretty sure given his known diligence Van Gelder would have tested this theory out before doing this. I note what you say about noise reduction, but if Joe Harley is reproducing what is on the master tape then any increased hiss should be apparent. They don't seem in anyway excessive to me in this respect.

I also note your preference for originals, I don't have any Blue Notes originals (and way to expensive to buy now) just some early pressings that may be in a very few cases from the original metal work. I agree Originals in most cases are excellent and that may be, despite what I said above about the quality of the tapes, at least partially due to their 'freshness' when the metal work was made or it may just be a preference. When I have compared the few of the early pressings or in the case of Impulse where I do have a few originals I find it can go either way. I did note previously that I thought some of Kevin Gray's cut seemed a bit 'bright' to me, but that may be because I have become so used to what I expect to hear.

I think it may just come down whether we think the original LP's are an historically important document in themselves in representing the artists Music as most heard it at the time and since (and many do) or agree with Harley's opinion and approach that also has its supporters. I assume he thinks that better represents what the musicians were trying to convey. I often find myself caught between the two.

That ties in with my speculation earlier in BN 80 thread that the RVG mastered CDs might also have mastered for the main equipment being used at that time - including portable boomboxes and cars - which might explain why someone so skilled and knowledgeable produced something that sounded so poor on more demanding playback equipment.

 

[Seanm]

As stated I’m really not convinced by this. As an example Blue Note (and other jazz labels) catered for the emerging (expensive, middle class and up) stereo market right from the very start, they didn’t hang around until the mid-60s the way pop music tended to. To my mind it is likely a similar demographic to classical, or at least had sufficient numbers sold at that level to really care about audiophile sound quality.

PS Original US RVG cuts sound bloody amazing, they just have so much presence and power to them. He puts Coltrane etc right in the room like I’ve never heard any reissue do.

Interesting, I don’t know anything about this, I’d just always assumed the main audience would have been young hipsters. Wouldn’t mind reading something about this.

 

[poco a poco]

I have at least 8 US original Impulse all I think with the Van Gelder Stamp. I think four of each Mono and Stereo plus some first UK pressings in mono and stereo as well and a few of both on other labels. I agree they do sound excellent especially in comparison with nearly all later reissues, but I lack enough really high quality audiophile duplicates in all respects for it to be a fair competition. As my originals were more than good enough I felt no need for other copies. I did do a comparison with Coltrane's ALS in the Verve AS reissue thread where you also posted. That though was a UK original against the Verve reissue and I was split with some things better and others not perhaps as good. The UK master tape was the one that was supposed to have been the ones used for the Verve though.The original did have a little more 'presence' on Coltrane's sax though for some reason. They were both excellent and I would be happy with either. I may have to bite the bullet and buy the soon to be released Coltrane Crescent on AS Verve to compare where I have a Van Gelder stamped US stereo, but I doubt again the reissue will be the true original master tape because of the fire?

Back to original Blue Notes we need to further define the true original with regard to Van Gelder's intentions in comparisons. Prior to I think 1962 the originals were all issued in mono first and the stereo's were issued later. The earlier ones much later. Although Van Gelder was recording to to two tracks he was to monitoring on just one speaker even when he did the first fold downs and pan potted the instruments to create a stereo spread and he certainly at least while at Hackensack still had a preference for mono. So perhaps we should only be comparing mono versions in many cases.