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Vanishing speakers - how do they do it?

P

Piksky

pfm Member
I’m referring to speakers that can image perfectly and just vanish, leaving an exquisitely formed musical soundscape in front and all around them.

How do they do it? What aspect of their design makes them so capable of producing sound that just does not seem to originate from them whatsoever?

Is it just clever speaker design? Or does system synergy play its part too?

Why can’t all well designed speakers manage it?

Audio Physic are good at it. I’ve recently discovered that PMC DB1i’s can pull the same trick. I’m sure there are many others.

But not all. I’ve heard good stereo imaging but there’s almost always a source of sound. Not so with the magic speakers.

So: how do they do it? Anyone know?
 
Piksky said:
How do they do it? What aspect of their design makes them so capable of producing sound that just does not seem to originate from them whatsoever?
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My best guess is driver integration, very close driver spacing, phase accuracy and lack of cabinet resonance. For me the very best are almost always either mini-monitors or panels.

Piksky said:
Is it just clever speaker design? Or does system synergy play its part too?
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Definitely synergy, some kit just can’t generate a believable acoustic space.

PS Obviously room setup and speaker position is absolutely critical too.
 
The vanishing speaker effect is primarily dependent on the recording. Speaker placement also matters. Once those things are taken care of, any half-decent speaker should be able to pull it off. That said, some designs are probably more sensitive to placement than others.
 
Tony L said:
My best guess is driver integration, very close driver spacing, phase accuracy and lack of cabinet resonance. For me the very best are almost always either mini-monitors or panels.
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Yip. That seems to be a big part of it. Linn Kans and Isobariks use the same mid and treble drivers but Kans disappear in a way Briks do not.

Usually! I have heard them vanish compleatly, so it's not just about the speaker, but it's certainly true that some speaker designs are better at it than others.

To me the real question is, how important is this trick and does it come at a cost?
 
I don´t know if it´s down to the speakers alone so much as the room perhaps, my DIY WD25TEx (see avatar) do it as did my Totem Arros before them. My stumbling block is height of image - singers are all midgets.
 
These vanish better than anything youve ever heard. Mad but true.

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Tony L said:
My best guess is driver integration, very close driver spacing, phase accuracy and lack of cabinet resonance. For me the very best are almost always either mini-monitors or panels.

Definitely synergy, some kit just can’t generate a believable acoustic space.

PS Obviously room setup and speaker position is absolutely critical too.
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Nail on head there Tony. Most speakers, if well set up, can create an image you can point to. Very few can recreate a realistic and all-encompassing sound field that the instruments are part of and reside in, as part of a larger acoustic picture.

For me it’s the difference between notes and music.
 
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Lots of speakers can do the vanishing thing, given a reasonable room, suitable positioning and a good recording.

But making the room disappear - that's what counts for me, and it is harder to achieve. In my experience only omnidirectional speakers really succeed in making that deception convincing.

edit: cross-posting with Colin L, above. I couldn't agree more.
 
Bear in mind that unless a recording was made live, how it appears on replay is purely manufactured, as it was at mastering. Even live, especially recent, is not so much different.
 
First time I heard the disappearing act was a pair of Quad ELS, the 57 variety, in a shop in Manchester. Spellbinding with the music just hanging in the air.
 
JR149s were my first experience. They are one of those speakers that seem absolutely irrelevant to the music in the room, nothing seems to come from them. Quads do the same things, as do LS3/5As. None of them do the full effortlessly dynamic ‘life size’ thing of real US high end, giant Tannoys, MBLs etc, but they are utterly believable to me. The ESL 63 is spectacularly good IMO, a very different perspective to the other speakers I guess because of the point source, delay line and such obsessive attention to the time domain. They image very noticeably and intentionally behind the speaker plane.
 
Having the off axis reflected sound share the same fundamental balance as the on axis direct sound seems very important, and also controlling dispersion such that you aren't swamped with reflections.
 
My Devore speakers can do that as well. I was playing a CD by Ryuichi Sakamoto and Alva Noto last night and some of the bleeps were coming from beyond the walls and the ceiling and the piano was just sitting in the middle of the room.

Often when I'm listening if I close my eyes there is no match between the position of the speakers and the location of the sound. It is recording dependent (Efterklang's Piramida is another record that gives me a floating widescreen sound stage) and the speakers have to be matched to my listening position but I'd not experienced that effect before I had these speakers.

It is far more noticeable on CD than vinyl. Any thoughts on why that might be?
 
As a contra-example, I don’t particularly get this from my Ardens, probably due to listening too far away from them (i.e. I’m further from either speaker than they are apart). I’m sure ‘disappearing’ is correlated to distance, among other things. I am sure that if I sat more along equilateral lines it would happen more regularly.
 
One of my favourite attributes in a speaker, is that disappearing act. My Spendor 4/5s do it, sounding utterly cohesive, especially if listening in the dark.

Would like to hear the Ls50 Metas soon to see how they fare.
 
Kans are the only speakers that have managed this in my set up so far. The music doesn't seem to be coming from the speakers at all.
I've been on a fruitless quest for the last year or so to find another speaker that will do this but with a bit more bass solidity. My Kans are EQed so the bass isn't totally absent and what there is makes it very easy to follow bass lines. This is important for me.

Mr Pig said:
Kans disappear in a way Briks do not.
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This is disappointing - they were on my list to try as they share some of the drivers.

Robert said:
off axis reflected sound share the same fundamental balance as the on axis direct sound seems very important,
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Interestingly, tying in with this idea, I've found in my setup that if the speakers are pointed outwards slightly the effect is enhanced in speakers where it doesn't normally work. Not enough to displace the Kans though as yet.

kjb said:
It is far more noticeable on CD than vinyl. Any thoughts on why that might be?
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One possibility might be channel separation? Vinyl might be only 30dB or so whereas it is much greater on CD.
 
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