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Pre-Preamp' MC Amplification

Vinny

pfm Member
I suspect that I may be "unusual" in that I have heard, at length, 3 different phono stages, three different SUTs and 2 different head amp's using the same cart' into the same pre' etc. All pre-pre's at under the £1k mark, used/second-hand.

For me, the level of detail and more especially bass detail increases stage-SUT-head amp'. Within any one type of pre-pre, the different brands change the flavour, but do not reinvent the wheel.

SUTs - downside is really how susceptible or not they are to picking up noise. I use screened twin IC's so it really is the SUT and they vary from immune (Carver), to far from immune.

Head amp's - next to no background noise of any description.

All based on things here. (FWIW - delos, Hadcock/Schroder, hyperspace, Croft pre', Avondale mono's, 15 inch Tannoys.)

What say you?
 
I use a MC pre-pre with a Pass pearl - I can say its very transparent, clean, no noise. Its a fairly simple jfet arrangement, powered via a teddyreg, common here about 10 years ago.

I use a SUT with a valve stage - but I think its not as transparent. No noise pickup with it, but just not as clean a sound. I've never mixed an matched as you have, so its hard to attribute anything to either setup!
 
Interesting one...

I’d not use a SUT before, am keen to know, what does SUT brings out that an active MC phono does not and vice versa. Was told SUT has no PRAT and not as transparent. However, I’d not experience it before and reading from Rothwell website, SUT seems to make a lot of sense an itch I may want to scratch.
 
I often use a Rothwell Headspace, with a variety of MM stages, and it's always sounded great. It has plenty of loading and gain options, which I think is the main reason, it's easy to dial in sensible values for a cartridge. My experience with SUTs is more variable, largely because I think you really do have to carefully match the transformer specs to your cartridge.
 
what does SUT brings out that an active MC phono does not

Here, SUTs have had better mids and uppers - clearer, sharper, also better soundstage. I compared the Arkless GTi against a Rothwell SUT alongside one another and they sounded as impressive, but different - different balance across the range.
I found the Rothwell SUT a pain for picking up noise, but it just means fiddling until you get it right.

The Rothwell Headspace and the Graham Slee Elevator are the only two easily/generally available, modestly priced, head amp's so far as I am aware.
 
I've recently been caught up in these sorts of comparisons, trying to optimise the sound from an Audiomods 6 with an ATPGT33/ii mc. I've settled on using a Bob's Devices SUT that I bought used last year, which seems to have just the right loading for the AT cart, and which became very quiet once positioned correctly, right next to the turntable and out of the way of e.g. my power amp. I've tried a Rothwell Headspace head amp, but it didn't sound as good - the surface noise coming from the records also sounded much louder with it, for some reason - the SUT sounds more airy, better soundstaging etc. But I think that I was lucky with the SUT match; it has two gain settings, for instance, and the cart certainly doesn't sound as good with the higher gain. And the Headspace does sound pretty good - it's also very flexible. All this has held with two different phono stages - a Quad valve QC24P and, before that, a Rothwell Simplex (great little unit).
 
Excuse my ignorance......I must be completely thick, as I haven't got a clue what people are going on about here. Where I come from, SUT is something you find up a chimney.

In my simple world, I use a Rega Aria PS married to a 2019 stock LP12 with an Akito tonearm, and a Ortofon Cadenza Blue MC cartridge. Commencing with a recommended start-point, a bit of gentle trial and error fiddling with the controls on the Aria got me to a sound I really enjoyed, and still do. All done in an afternoon.

Ignorance can be bliss I guess.
 
Ignorance can be bliss I guess.

Ignorance could mean that anyones misses out on something very worthwile. I'll put it no stronger than that :)

MC pre-preamplifier? You know this really..............

Most MC cart's can't be used straight into a MM stage of any description, none can be used straight into a line level input of a preamp'.

Three options for most MC cart's -
Into an SUT (step-up transformer), then into a MM stage (then maybe into a line level preamp input if the MM stage is stand-alone)
Into a head amp', then into a MM stage (then maybe into a line level preamp input if the MM stage is stand-alone)
Into an MC phono stage, then into a line level input on preamp.

A phono stage must be used at some stage, to perform RIAA correction.

I am sure there must be other totally obscure options, but these three are the main runners and even head amp's are VERY scarce in terms of models/manufacturers.
 
Like Bertie I've been happy with my Aria for years, it's the longest-serving bit of kit I have. But this has got me interested in head amps in particular. @Vinny what are you using for a head amp?
 
I did have a McKinnie head amp' - a legend in its own lifetime. But mine went "pop" and the unobtainium JFETs were potted, so that was/is dead, dead.
I suspect that I would have never looked to have used anything else after that had it lived.
As of yesterday, I have an Elevator - early days, but played aongside an SUT, I like it a great deal. Obviously not side-by-side comparable to the McKinnie.

Head amp's are never cheap, one downside.
 
My sincere thanks to misterdog and Vinny for the enlightenment and sharing of knowledge. I got my man Jeeves to read it and explain it to me over elevenses. Every day is a school day, so they say.

I'll be sticking with the Aria though.
 
Implementation is everything! You may as well ask whether 4 cylinder, 6 cylinder or V8's are the best engine but unless you have all the information to know the differences in performance between a Honda VTEC DOHC and an Austin A series they are both just 4 cylinder engines!

Bearing that in mind and assuming very best practice and implementation without cost coming into it then:

1st/ MC phono stage.

2nd/ Head amp

3rd/ SUT

Of course almost all valve MC stages are an MM stage with SUT's* built into them...

...and more than a few SS MC stages are an SS MM stage with a switchable head amp built in!

*the practical alternative would be a built in SS head amp and this is rarely done for "political and bias" reasons... Many/most builders of valve stages regard SS as the devils work as do many potential buyers hence you will almost always find the "initial pre" bit to be an SUT not a head amp in a valve MC stage.

Ultimately the MC stage (MC only! Usually compromises must be made to make it MM/MC switchable) can be the best because it can have the purest, shortest signal path, as pure and short as the best MM valve stages in fact but without needing an SUT placing in the signal path for MC use as they have enough gain not to need an SUT.
I'm afraid I'll have to name one of my own creations as the closest to this ideal I know of and this is my transconductance valve/SS hybrid MC only two box phono stage. My transconductance two box SS MC only phono stage and The Paradise a close second in terms of purest signal path etc. Other phono stages are available... one's you can actually buy even!

At this point many will be thinking that the above differs wildly from their personal experience and on this I repeat that implementation completely trumps everything else!! Any one of the three methods I discussed above could be the best you've heard/owned depending on just how well implemented it is in comparison to other methods/types you have experience of.

Oh and there is a very rare fourth type which is an all valve MC only stage (and indeed a fifth if we include valve head amps). This has been done but is as rare as rocking horse droppings as it cannot be as quiet (hiss free) as the other methods and to even get adequately low noise the input valves must be fairly specialised types and only the lowest noise ones from a batch will generally be quiet enough... they are then fairly unlikely to remain quiet enough for a whole year! It can give superb sound (I built a valve head amp years ago which I used for several years, going through lots of valves, with great results) but for the very keen enthusiast only.
 
The trouble as I see it is matching up multiple devices weighing the pros and cons of each to achieve a sound one likes. With so many potential permutations it strikes me that a well designed mc stage with sufficient gain is the most practical choice.

Of course one may be wedded to part of a potential chain of devices for any of multiple reasons so YMMV
 
I did have a McKinnie head amp' - a legend in its own lifetime. But mine went "pop" and the unobtainium JFETs were potted, so that was/is dead, dead.
I suspect that I would have never looked to have used anything else after that had it lived.

...

Really? Shit! Maybe over voltage due to 220v vs 240v? Were they ever sold in UK? I know a few other UK folk use them. How/when did it fail? Interested in selling it? :)

My journey has been forced by me preferring Glenn's MM phono stage to anything else I have ever tried. I have tried many, many MC stages - none bettered the Croft stage. But I wanted to run a LOMC cart. I tried a few SUTs, both DIY and commercial, which I was happy with. But I then bought a turntable that came with a McKinnie head-amp, tried that and never looked back, simply better in every way - I now own 3 of them in case one ever goes pop. It's based on the MC stage of John Curl's Vendetta, built and sold as a dedicated head-amp here in Switzerland by one of John's ex-technician's (with his permission).

I currently have a Townshend head-amp and another SUT to try against the McKinnie, but bought them only because they were cheap and I can easily re-sell for no loss. But currently, since swapping my mildly modified Croft Micro II to a Croft Mega Micro of same vintage (plus raising my ESLs higher off ground, and installing a Micromega Duo for digital duties), I'm simply satisfied with the quality of my entire system and am just listening to it.
 
Had a few decent SUTs over the years, Hashimoto etc, currently have Tribute. Also have a Denon HA 1000 which I've rebuilt, and have had a quick go with one of Jez's head amps. Also have a Firebottle battery power job built with Z foils.

All have their strengths, but if I was to characterise, I'd say the head amps put you a few rows closer, and a little more dynamic presentation. A SUT by contrast is to my ears more relaxed, gives a better flow to the music, and as Vinny says, better sound staging.
 
Really? Shit! Maybe over voltage due to 220v vs 240v? Were they ever sold in UK? I know a few other UK folk use them. How/when did it fail? Interested in selling it? :)

It's yours if you want it. I nearly binned it, but like so much clutter, it now resides in the loft.

Jez provided a likely explanation of what happened, but it took out a tweeter on a 15 inch Tannoy when it did go phhhutt. Not a proper description, but his best, educated, guess was that it basically caused the Croft to produce quite a considerable slug of very high frequency. The tweeter coil looked OK until I used a lens, when the few fried turns were obvious.
 
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