Difference in audio quality with streaming transports

[Timcat]

Ah but this is the crux of the matter. Surely it's the inaccuracies (or eccentricities?!) of the ear/brain interface that determines the absolute final results. NOT the output of the gear so much. Hence why so many ultimately choose their gear on how it sounds to them. And we come to forums like this to discuss these findings, and a subjective language to describe these sounds has naturally developed over the decades, as is the case in other hobbies involving the senses.

I can see where the waters get muddied by both sides. Some subjectivists reject the fact that the human brain can fool them (and there's endless tests of how the eye or price tags or brands can fool the ear, or for example, the tastes buds in terms of wine tasting etc etc), and call out what are in fact colourations as being superior. Measurements "don't matter" etc. And the objectivists dote on their measurements as being the ultimate arbiter of what sounds accurate to the input signal, whilst often snubbing people's real world subjective findings as something to shun or ridicule.

I can see why objectivists are vocal however, especially at the moment. There IS so much audiofoo around, as the marketeers have long taken advantage of the subjective nature of audio ("I heard it, therefore it's true") to flog silly cables, clamps, special fuses and all the other idiocies... things designed to serve a purpose (i.e. USB cables, interconnects) and fit for purpose are suddenly NOT good enough unless they're from an audiophile brand, and to hell with the laws of physics or science, and so on... Unfortunately we're now at the point in this hobby where the lies have been touted often enough to be truths, and the magazines and some dealers have unfortunately perpetuated the foo side of things, and now it's all way out of proportion. Very much like a cult or religion. On both sides.

I think both camps need to acknowledge and accept the findings of the other. From own findings and tastes, I'd subjectively take a coloured 'Quad II' over an accurate Purifi any day of the week, for example, whilst happily acknowledging the measured superiority of the latter. Ultimately - for me - I want the majority of my music collection to be as enjoyable as possible, even given lousy recordings/masterings (and there's a LOT of those), and often an amplifier (for example) with a little 2nd harmonic distortion can sweeten the end result enough without compromising other areas. So subjectively there's a balance unique to each individual, and that cannot be measured, and should not be put down as is often the case over at ASR.

Probably the most sensible post in the second part of this thread.

I think that you have hit upon one of the reasons why many people find less than perfect equipment preferable to more transparent alternatives with some recordings. Much distortion is introduced during the recording process, particularly by the over use of compression and "brick walling" by recording/mastering engineers and producers. As a result, such recordings can sound terrible through a transparent, revealing system, but acceptable through less than perfect kit, like the Quad 606 you mention. If the original recording is highly distorted, then I can see no reason why this should not be addressed by using a "nicer" bit of kit that is nicer because it alters the recored input, i.e, distorts it, in order to enjoy the music.

One example that comes to mind is that many rock tracks can be more enjoyable when played on an old Naim CDI, which is far from perfect, than via modern DACs.

 

[Octavian]

The argument that we should strive to listen to music through equipment that measures best, rather than through equipment that gives us the greatest musical pleasure, is a value judgement. It sanctifies the original ‘work of art’ in a way I doubt any genuine artist would condone. Most genuine artists and musicians are, in my experience, very happy for people to take what they want from their work. Indeed, many are disparaging of the critics and experts who get a bit precious about meaning and interpretation.

The argument, that we must respect the art above all, and should only listen to it in an approved form, is both elitist and exclusional. And a tiny bit fascistic. It is but one short step from setting out ‘acceptable’ forms of music to listen to, and disparaging other forms as ‘unacceptable’ or ‘degenerate’.

In other words: when everything else fails try the Nazi argument. Do you not have any sense of proportion?

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

In other words: when everything else fails try the Nazi argument. Do you not have any sense of proportion?

I thought the reference implied Stalinist, actually. And I’m not really inclined to take a lecture on having a sense of proportion from somebody who adopted an ad hominem approach to arguing from the outset, and who has posted the frankly rather preposterous comments you have in this thread.

Edit: I notice you didn’t engage with the serious point I was making, preferring to deflect and scuttle down the Godwin hole.

 

[miktec]

I thought the reference implied Stalinist, actually. And I’m not really inclined to take a lecture on having a sense of proportion from somebody who adopted an ad hominem approach to arguing from the outset, and who has posted the frankly rather preposterous comments you have in this thread.

Edit: I notice you didn’t engage with the serious point I was making, preferring to deflect and scuttle down the Godwin hole.

To be fair on Octavian, I thought the use of the term 'fascistic' (and other terms you used in the same sentence) raised direct associations with Mussolini and, by extension, Hitler.
Stalinism never entered my mind ..

Bit pedantic I know - but nevertheless.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

To be fair on Octavian, I thought the use of the term 'fascistic' (and other terms you used in the same sentence) raised direct associations with Mussolini and, by extension, Hitler.
Stalinism never entered my mind ..

Bit pedantic I know - but nevertheless.

It’s a fair comment, all I can say is that I was more thinking of Stalin and Shostakovich than Nazis, and the ‘degenerate’ term was used by both, IIRC. But the wider point was that his general approach was reminiscent of the sort of control over the way to consume art that both espoused, and I don’t think his playing the Godwin card to shut down the criticism is appropriate. Especially when he’s pointedly declined to engage with most of my points, except when he’s done so ad hominem.

 

[Octavian]

It’s a fair comment, all I can say is that I was more thinking of Stalin and Shostakovich than Nazis, and the ‘degenerate’ term was used by both, IIRC. But the wider point was that his general approach was reminiscent of the sort of control over the way to consume art that both espoused, and I don’t think his playing the Godwin card to shut down the criticism is appropriate. Especially when he’s pointedly declined to engage with most of my points, except when he’s done so ad hominem.

We might then take a closer look at your Nazi argument.

The argument that we should strive to listen to music through equipment that measures best, rather than through equipment that gives us the greatest musical pleasure, is a value judgement.

True, people discuss and judge values all the time. Supporting different values from yours does not imply fascism in any way, not even "tiny bit".

The argument, that we must respect the art above all, and should only listen to it in an approved form, is both elitist and exclusional.

It is actually neither. How does my point of view exclude anyone? What "elite" am I postulating here? I am simply expressing my opionion that people should do A instead of B. In the context of this thread "elitist" and "exclusional" are just fashionable buzzwords (they may have validity elsewhere, of course).

And a tiny bit fascistic. It is but one short step from setting out ‘acceptable’ forms of music to listen to, and disparaging other forms as ‘unacceptable’ or ‘degenerate’.

This is actually a combination of a slippery slope and a Nazi argument (over the top and wide of the mark). No one in this thread has suggested that people should be prohibited from choosing their hifi on whatever basis they want. No one has suggested tha some kind of music is better than some other. I and many others have expressed our opinions on the subject. That this somehow is close to the repressive cultural policies of totalitarian systems is entirely your own fabulation. Ever heard about the boy who cried wolf?

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

I’m done feeding this troll.

 

[camverton]

I’m done feeding this troll.

Very wise!

It is difficult to have a discussion with anybody who says "I am simply expressing my opionion that people should do A instead of B". Most of us have, and express, an opinion on what is best but most of us try to avoid saying that others should do what we think. Perhaps that is the difference between objective and subjective approaches. With one there is nothing to discuss other than that people should follow its strictures and if they don't are branded as writing "meaningless drivel" whereas with the other there are experiences to swap, ideas to consider try to see if they are relevant to us as individuals.

One things for sure, if there have to be "sides" (and I think many tread the pragmatic ground) I know which I would rather have a natter down the pub with!

 

[Miss Ariel]

Very wise!

It is difficult to have a discussion with anybody who says "I am simply expressing my opionion that people should do A instead of B". Most of us have, and express, an opinion on what is best but most of us try to avoid saying that others should do what we think. Perhaps that is the difference between objective and subjective approaches. With one there is nothing to discuss other than that people should follow its strictures and if they don't are branded as writing "meaningless drivel" whereas with the other there are experiences to swap, ideas to consider try to see if they are relevant to us as individuals.

One things for sure, if there have to be "sides" (and I think many tread the pragmatic ground) I know which I would rather have a natter down the pub with!

I have been reading Hi FI Forums for years and have never read anything like this.Most normal people just put some music on and sit back and enjoy - I do.
I think if they read this discussion they wouldn't understand any of it.And most of this I don't.
It just stikes me as a load of pretentious intellectual fascism ...It's the art !

 

[Octavian]

Very wise!
It is difficult to have a discussion with anybody who says "I am simply expressing my opionion that people should do A instead of B". Most of us have, and express, an opinion on what is best but most of us try to avoid saying that others should do what we think.

Yet quite a few of us do that from time to time. They are called for instance opinions, recommendations and advice: in case you want X, then do Y. And that is what is being done here: in my opinion it is better and more valuable to listen to accurate equipment rather than less accurate one. Reason for this: it serves better the art form we call recorded music. You seem to have a problem with views which do not align with your own as does the other poster who is keen to label my views as fascistic, no less.

 

[Heckyman]

It just stikes me as a load of pretentious intellectual fascism ...

A p*ssing contest, that's what it is. ;-)

 

[camverton]

Yet quite a few of us do that from time to time. They are called for instance opinions, recommendations and advice: in case you want X, then do Y. And that is what is being done here: in my opinion it is better and more valuable to listen to accurate equipment rather than less accurate one. Reason for this: it serves better the art form we call recorded music. You seem to have a problem with views which do not align with your own.

Octavian, you seem to have mucked up quoting me and it looks as though I have said what you are saying. Please correct, I don’t want your words attributed to me.

As for what you have written... I shall adopt post #288!

 

[camverton]

A p*ssing contest, that's what it is. ;-)

At my age a dribbling contest might be more appropriate

 

[Amber Audio]

At my age a dribbling contest might be more appropriate

Never thought I’d need to push

 

[Octavian]

Octavian, you seem to have mucked up quoting me and it looks as though I have said what you are saying. Please correct, I don’t want your words attributed to me.

As for what you have written... I shall adopt post #288!

Sorry, I genuinely do not understand. Do you mean post #291?

 

[camverton]

Sorry, I genuinely do not understand. Do you mean post #291?

That is now displaying correctly. Your quote of my post was originally displaying as combined with your reply in the quote box.

As for “You seem to have a problem with views which do not align with your own” might I remind you that you described one of previous posts as “meaningless drivel”; now then; who do you think has the problem? Dribble on .

 

[Octavian]

That is now displaying correctly. Your quote of my post was originally displaying as combined with your reply in the quote box.

As for “You seem to have a problem with views which do not align with your own” might I remind you that you described one of previous posts as “meaningless drivel”; now then; who do you think has the problem? Dribble on .

You might want to re-familiarize yourself with the original posting that I characterized with the words "meaningless drivel". The words may have been harsh, but considering the posting's inaccurate factual claims and condescending tone (not that I am free from those sins), perhaps not entirely undeserved.

 

[Amber Audio]

That is now displaying correctly. Your quote of my post was originally displaying as combined with your reply in the quote box.

As for “You seem to have a problem with views which do not align with your own” might I remind you that you described one of previous posts as “meaningless drivel”; now then; who do you think has the problem? Dribble on .

Kudos keeping going I stopped reading his posts a while ago, just the replies

 

[camverton]

Kudos keeping going I stopped reading his posts a while ago, just the replies

Ha ha. No I’m all dribbled out, and there are much more interesting things to occupy myself. Still, we all need a meaningless diversion occasionally from the essentials of life such as enjoying music.

 

[suzywong]

Is there a difference between dribbling and drooling? (Asking for a friend)