Labour Leader: Keir Starmer III

[Tony L]

Focus Group Labour don’t seem to have anything to say about the government’s ‘fixed dates rather than data’ approach to reopening schools tomorrow either. Looks like the Tory ‘boom/bust’ approach to “managing” covid will continue for a while yet.

PS I didn’t watch Marr, I really can’t be arsed with him at present, but I did watch Sophie Ridge who had Nandy in the traditional FGL role of talking but not saying.

 

[Seanm]

Focus Group Labour don’t seem to have anything to say about the government’s ‘fixed dates rather than data’ approach to reopening schools tomorrow either. Looks like the Tory ‘boom/bust’ approach to “managing” covid will continue for a while yet.

PS I didn’t watch Marr, I really can’t be arsed with him at present, but I did watch Sophie Ridge who had Nandy in the traditional FGL role of talking but not saying.

I think they’re way beyond focus groups by this stage: focus groups would surely be saying Yes, nurses deserve a pay rise; Yes, those who did well out of the pandemic should pay a windfall tax. They’re running on pure dogma now, and being reassured by the same pundit class that set up Chuck:tig.

https://thecritic.co.uk/starmer-year-one/

 

[Tony L]

I think they’re way beyond focus groups by this stage: focus groups would surely be saying Yes, nurses deserve a pay rise; Yes, those who did well out of the pandemic should pay a windfall tax.

I’m not convinced. To my eyes Labour are crippled by three things: a) that never-forgotten ‘there is no money’ note left at the end of the 2008 global banking collapse, b) “That Bigoted Woman”-gate, and c) Corbyn’s poor leadership and corresponding total electoral wipe-out.

This has left the party in total existential paralysis as ‘a’ they can’t publicly justify spending or borrowing as they have willingly accepted a false revisionism of fiscal incompetence (the truth being Alistair Darling actually saved Sterling from collapse), ‘b’ they have to be overtly nationalistic/racist, and ‘c’ they can no longer attack anything at all from ‘the left’ without public ridicule. The result is the whole Labour movement is now a totally spent force. They have nothing to sell and are of no relevance to anyone. They have been outflanked on every side by their own failure to the extent all they can do now is to say nothing about anything. The party no longer has the institutional credibility to hold any opinion and therefore no longer has any place in the political landscape.

PS I’ve never heard of The Critic, I actually thought it was a hi-fi mag! Based on that article it is certainly not worth a fiver for three issues, that was a spectacularly naff opinion piece (it clearly isn’t journalism).

 

[Joe Hutch]

Two words, Jo Swinson

Maths isn't my strong point, but suppose Corbyn had said 'We don't want a General Election at this point'. Would the Tories, LibDems etc have had enough votes between them to force a General Election?

 

[Joe Hutch]

I’m not convinced. To my eyes Labour are crippled by three things: a) that never-forgotten ‘there is no money’ note left at the end of the 2008 global banking collapse, b) “That Bigoted Woman”-gate, and c) Corbyn’s poor leadership and corresponding total electoral wipe-out.

Actually, Labour is crippled by one thing: factionalism. It has been its big problem since it became a party and, short of the party splitting into (at least) two separate entities, it's a problem that's not going away.

 

[Joe Hutch]

The Liverpool situation is getting interesting, deselected mayoral candidate Anna Rothery is suing Focus Group Labour (Guardian). Liverpool is a place that tends not to stand for bullshit .

Derek Hatton?

 

[Andrewxyz]

PS I’ve never heard of The Critic, I actually thought it was a hi-fi mag! Based on that article it is certainly not worth a fiver for three issues, that was a spectacularly naff opinion piece (it clearly isn’t journalism).

https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/f/standpoint-the-critic-and-unherd-whos-their-daddies

https://www.conservativehome.com/hi...ets-out-to-expose-and-ridicule-bad-ideas.html

 

[droodzilla]

Maths isn't my strong point, but suppose Corbyn had said 'We don't want a General Election at this point'. Would the Tories, LibDems etc have had enough votes between them to force a General Election?

I think so because, by then, most Conservative MPs wanted a general election too. The opposition parties were holding out against an election (trying to amend the deal at that time) until the Lib-Dems and (maybe?) the SNP broke ranks. It's a bit hazy but I'm fairly sure Labour had no choice in the end.

 

[Tony L]

Derek Hatton?

As stated many times I have little if any respect for Hatton, he’s closer to Robert Jenrick or Nigel Farage (i.e. politics of the back-pocket) than anything I’d respect, but the huge support he gained with his hollow fake-left rhetoric does show Liverpool can, or at least could once, get behind an outspoken anti-Tory outlier against the mainstream. I suspect deselecting Anna Rothery, who is local and seems very well liked, and parachuting in some bland Starmer/FGL clone will not end too well.

 

[droodzilla]

https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/f/standpoint-the-critic-and-unherd-whos-their-daddies

https://www.conservativehome.com/hi...ets-out-to-expose-and-ridicule-bad-ideas.html

Yup, The Critic is part of the far-right libertarian infrastructure. The aim is to normalise ideas and attitudes which used to be (rightly) beyond the pale.

 

[ks.234]

I’m not convinced. To my eyes Labour are crippled by three things: a) that never-forgotten ‘there is no money’ note left at the end of the 2008 global banking collapse, b) “That Bigoted Woman”-gate, and c) Corbyn’s poor leadership and corresponding total electoral wipe-out.

This has left the party in total existential paralysis as ‘a’ they can’t publicly justify spending or borrowing as they have willingly accepted a false revisionism of fiscal incompetence (the truth being Alistair Darling actually saved Sterling from collapse), ‘b’ they have to be overtly nationalistic/racist, and ‘c’ they can no longer attack anything at all from ‘the left’ without public ridicule. The result is the whole Labour movement is now a totally spent force. They have nothing to sell and are of no relevance to anyone. They have been outflanked on every side by their own failure to the extent all they can do now is to say nothing about anything. The party no longer has the institutional credibility to hold any opinion and therefore no longer has any place in the political landscape.

PS I’ve never heard of The Critic, I actually thought it was a hi-fi mag! Based on that article it is certainly not worth a fiver for three issues, that was a spectacularly naff opinion piece (it clearly isn’t journalism).

While I agree with much of what you say I feel strongly that to blame the 2019 election disaster of the person of Corbyn is far too simplistic. The real damage done to Labour’s election chances was done by the right wing in Labour itself. If Corbyn’s personal defects were so much to the fore, he would not have got within a few thousand votes of victory in 2017.

If you pin the blame for 2019 on about more generally, we will be in much broader agreement

 

[Seeker_UK]

I’m not convinced. To my eyes Labour are crippled by three things: a) that never-forgotten ‘there is no money’ note left at the end of the 2008 global banking collapse, b) “That Bigoted Woman”-gate, and c) Corbyn’s poor leadership and corresponding total electoral wipe-out.

Not Iraq then? That's some progress, surely?

 

[Tony L]

The real damage done to Labour’s election chances was done by the right wing in Labour itself. If Corbyn’s personal defects were so much to the fore, he would not have got within a few thousand votes of victory in 2017.

It was both to my eyes. Any credibility Corbyn may have had in 2017 had clearly totally evaporated by 2019. By that point he was proven as a weak dithering and ‘facing in all directions’ leader, laughably cowering in the face of Brexit at PMQs, cowering under the weight of anti-Semitism accusations, basically failing to lead on any subject in any way. He didn’t command the respect of his own party, let alone the electorate. Sure, some, even much of this failure may actually have been orchestrated from within his party, within its union paymasters, and from within various other locations (a hostile press is a given). This only underscores my view that Labour are a spent force politically. They have made themselves entirely obsolete and irrelevant to political discourse let alone movement. If they can’t even agree on an ideology, trajectory or vision amongst themselves why the hell should anyone outside place any trust in them?

 

[Tony L]

Not Iraq then? That's some progress, surely?

Kind of comes in under nationalism/racism, but add it as a dedicated point if you want.

 

[Seanm]

Actually, Labour is crippled by one thing: factionalism. It has been its big problem since it became a party and, short of the party splitting into (at least) two separate entities, it's a problem that's not going away.

If it’s an eternal problem what is it that makes it *the* problem now?

For my money it was obviously a problem during the Corbyn era, but still a cop out to just say “Factionalism!” It was one faction, dominant in the PLP, that refused either to sit the next few years out or take roles in the shadow cabinet they thought beneath them.

FactionalISM isn’t really a big problem now because that same faction has essentially won: it has the leadership, the bureaucracy and the PLP, and the membership are either on side, resigned or powerless. There’s moaning of course but the left simply don’t have the media power to keep a damaging story in the headlines 24-7.

 

[ks.234]

Actually, Labour is crippled by one thing: factionalism. It has been its big problem since it became a party and, short of the party splitting into (at least) two separate entities, it's a problem that's not going away.

If the bloody fist fights that break out on here between people of different party allegiances and none, people who would normally sit comfortably within the broad church of centre ground politics, is anything to go by, the problem is wider than the Labour Party. It’s a leftish problem. A problem that doesn’t seem to do the rounds in rightish circles

The Tories have been more successful at forging alliances over groups with different principles in way the other parties haven’t. This is partly because they have far fewer public principles. They have private principles that are understood by the few and public principles that the many accept but with the understanding that when the Tory party talks about public principles, it doesn’t really mean it and will not hold them to account for.

It’s a model Labour seem to be copying.

 

[Cav]

I’m not convinced. To my eyes Labour are crippled by three things: a) that never-forgotten ‘there is no money’ note left at the end of the 2008 global banking collapse, b) “That Bigoted Woman”-gate, and c) Corbyn’s poor leadership and corresponding total electoral wipe-out.

Well, you must believe what you want and for whatever reason. As for (a) and (b), I would challenge you to find any ordinary voter who would know what any of those examples actually refer to or would give a damn if explained to them. As to (c) that is an opinion not a fact despite repetition ad nauseam.

 

[Tony L]

As to (c) that is an opinion not a fact despite repetition ad nauseam.

Are you in such a state of denial or internet warrior trolling that you can’t accept that Labour lost 60s seats (from an already losing position two years previous), leading to its worst defeat in living memory? You can google it easily enough. Labour lost. Terribly. To Boris Johnson of all people!

 

[maxflinn]

I wonder when Starmer is finished if he'll be offered a job with JP Morgan Chase, as Blair and Sajid Javid were..

 

[Cav]

Are you in such a state of denial or internet warrior trolling that you can’t accept that Labour lost 60s seats (from an already losing position two years previous), leading to its worst defeat in living memory? You can google it easily enough. Labour lost. Terribly. To Boris Johnson of all people!

Did I deny Labour lost the General Election?