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ESP & BYG Jazz

hockman

pfm Member
Abraxas and Get Back were sometimes guilty of using needle drops, very variable quality (I found out the hard way). All the 90s ZYX German CDs I have heard sound very clean and dynamic, all tape transfers as far as I can tell apart from one or two individual Sun Ra pieces where the tapes were faulty. The ESP titles I have on ZYX CD sound far superior to the versions available to stream on Qobuz, and closer in balance and dynamic range to my first press vinyl or 80s Base LP reissues.

I think we better get back to Tone Poets, unless someone wants to start an ESP thread.

Thought it would interesting to include both ESP and BYG under discussion. Although ESP and BYG were unrelated labels with different provenance, they recorded similar music (i.e. avant garde jazz mostly) during roughly the same era. There was even an overlap of a few artists e.g. Sun Ra and Albert Ayler.

Which are your favorite albums? On ESP, I like the Ornette, Lacy and Bley but generally most of the recordings are a bit too 'free' for me. Similarly for the BYG records, I prefer the Shepp, Moncur and Ayler over some of the other artists. I have the Sun Ra record where he just made noises with his Moog!:D

Which are your favorites?

I think both ESP and BYG have both been reissued more recently i.e. last 20 years. Neither label was stellar sonically. Are the later reissues any good? Does anyone have any info on the Base pressings? I have mostly original ESPs although my Lacy is on Base. It sounds ok if a bit raw. I always thought that it was some sort of Italian pirate label. The Get Back issues are pretty bad based on my copy of In Search of the Mystery.
 
I’ve just posted my response in the Tone Poet thread by mistake and already been pulled up about it. Hopefully Tony will sort it out for us.
 
I picked up a pile of the ESP-Disk CD reissues in the slip cases off a stall in Spitalfields market a while back. Albert Ayler and Pharoah Sanders (1002 and 1003) are amongst the most essential of jazz recordings and, astonishingly, a lot less far-out than other ESP offerings. Have your heard The Godz or The Fugs?

The only album I have on Byg is a rather splendid live Gong album.
 
I only have a few of ESP-Disk CD's as posted in the Tone Poet thread.

I have a few originals on the BYG Actuel label that I bought in Paris many years ago.
The New Thing Actuel 23 (a double album composite with a number of their artists. Shepp, Murray, Sun Ra, Moncur etc.
The Art Ensemble of Chicago. Actuel 29 - Reese and the Smooth Ones.
Don Cherry Actuel 31 - Mu second Part.
Sun Ra Actuel 40 - The Solar Myth Approach Vol. 1
Steve Lacy - Actuel 52 - Moon.
I love the Don Cherry's. I have a CD of Part 1.
My favourite though is the Lacy Moon as I am a fan, but my pressing though new when bought is a little bit noisy.
 
I don't already want to take this thread off topic, but it is a little bit related to ESP-Disk if you read this interview last year in the wire: https://www.thewire.co.uk/in-writin...68-1969-interviews-hasan-shahid-pierre-crepon
So maybe of interest to some here.
The Black Unity Trio - Al-Fatihah as just been reissued on Gotta Groove Records. Produced from the original Master Tape, but I can't confirm if it is AAA. The original is very rare as there were only 500 made.
Mine is now on its way from Juno and should be here tomorrow hopefully.

https://www.juno.co.uk/artists/Black+Unity+Trio/
It's slightly cheaper on Amazon, but not available till 21st March.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B08VCL57Q7/?tag=pinkfishmedia-21
 
This site contains affiliate links for which pink fish media may be compensated.
ESP put out some fearless jazz titles. Apart from Sun Ra, Pharoah Sanders' First and Ayler's Spirits Rejoice, I love Bob James' Explosions. Quite some way removed from his later popular work. The Byron Allen Trio album is also great (and has artwork by Jay Dillon from the wonderful Godz).
 
Here is my response that I accidentally posted on Tone Poet thread in response to Hockman:
All the Aylers are essential IMO, especially Spiritual Unity and Ghosts with Don Cherry (aka Vibrations for European release). Although Ayler was a high volume player, I’m always surprised at the detail and transparency of sound from this trio. I’ve since learned that this is largely down to Sonny Murray only ever playing at a volume where he could easily hear the other instruments over his own energetic playing (a lesson I wish other drummers would take on board).

Paul Bley’s Closer is quintessential Bley, with many key compositions that reoccur throughout his career, often reinterpreted in expanded form with different players.

Ornette’s Town Hall Concert 1962 is an early outing for the trio with Charles Moffat and David Izenzon, and includes the momentous Ark. Ornette himself has commented on how well he played on this date, once citing it as possibly his favourite recording of himself.

Lowell Davidson Trio. I can hear Monk and Herbie Nichols influences, and many would probably add Cecil Taylor. But his melodic lines are his own, and interestingly several guitarists have name checked Davidson as an influence (from memory Bill Frisell. John Zorn was also a fan). Unfortunately an accident left Davidson unable to continue playing, so this is all we have. Great interaction with Milford Graves on drums.

New York Art Quartet notably with John Tchicai and Milford Graves, compositions by Rosewell Rudd and Tchicai. Composerley and delicate in comparison to some of the high octane free blowing on some releases. A personal favourite.

Marion Brown - Why Not? and Marion Brown Quartet. I love Brown’s expressive alto sound and melodic lines. Both dates include the fabulous Rashied Ali on drums. Why Not?, a sextet, includes Alan Shorter on trumpet (Wayne’s bother) and a young Bennie Maupin.

Frank Lowe - Black Beings - another high octane, passionate statement from Frank Lowe, with Joseph Jarman on soprano sax and an notable early appearance from William Parker. There is a recent CD reissue with bonus pieces from the same concert, all pieces unedited as the original had to be tailored to the LP format.

Frank Wright - Our Prayer - stunning altissimo control from tenor player Wright, a dense palette with Jack Coursil on trumpet and Muhammad Ali (brother of Rashied) on drums.

All the Sun Ra titles, especially Heliocentric Worlds Vol 1 which even amongst the multitude of Ra titles is outstanding, mainly for Ra’s contribution on marimba which I believe had been left in the studio. This album to my ears has a chamber music feel to it, and was the first Sun Ra album I ever heard loaned from Southport record library whilst doing my A levels.

There are more I periodically return to, but I think that is enough for now.
 
ESP put out some fearless jazz titles. Apart from Sun Ra, Pharoah Sanders' First and Ayler's Spirits Rejoice, I love Bob James' Explosions. Quite some way removed from his later popular work. The Byron Allen Trio album is also great (and has artwork by Jay Dillon from the wonderful Godz).

The Bob James is a surprising oddity, as I’ve never heard him play anything else in this style. The Gordon Mumma contributions are also interesting, a composer whose electroacoustic work I find interesting.

One title I forgot is the Milford Graves Percussion Ensemble, which is actually a duo with Sonny Morgan. Hard work, but a brilliantly realised set exemplifying what Graves’ drumming philosophy was all about.
 
I believe ESP’s biggest selling artist was Pearls Before Swine, not jazz though. The only BYG record I have is a rather lovely copy of Banana Moon by Daevid Allen. BYG produced some lovely covers.
 
I think both ESP and BYG have both been reissued more recently i.e. last 20 years. Neither label was stellar sonically. Are the later reissues any good? Does anyone have any info on the Base pressings? I have mostly original ESPs although my Lacy is on Base. It sounds ok if a bit raw. I always thought that it was some sort of Italian pirate label. The Get Back issues are pretty bad based on my copy of In Search of the Mystery.

It’s complicated. According to a lengthy Stollman interview the Base LPs were legitimately licensed in about 1980 for 2 years, but he believes they produced LPs for longer than their license. Mine are date stamped early 1980s, and they generally sound good, but I’d say from experience with only a 60% chance of getting a good pressing.

The other legitimate license was to ZYX in 1992 for CD only release. Stollman comments that they made a great job, and I agree. My copy of Milford Graves Percussion especially sounds excellent, as do a few others I have. Generally they are a safer bet than Base.

Get Back/Abraxas are bootlegs. The only Get Back/Abraxas I’ve ever heard have been needle drops.

Stollman himself officially relaunched the label on CD around 2005, frequently adding new artists, titles from the vault, extended existing titles etc. I have the Frank Wright box set and it’s good, but not as good as the ZYX version.

Here is a lengthy, but very informative, interview with Bernard Stollman from All About Jazz:

https://www.allaboutjazz.com/bernard-stollman-the-esp-disk-story-by-clifford-allen.php?width=768
 
I believe ESP’s biggest selling artist was Pearls Before Swine, not jazz though. The only BYG record I have is a rather lovely copy of Banana Moon by Daevid Allen. BYG produced some lovely covers.
Here is a link showing all the BYG Actual series covers.
It reminded me I also have Actuel 53 Gong - Camembert Electrique.
I remember seeing them somewhere around the time of this release at Walthamstow Assembly Hall.
https://www.bygrecords.com/actuel-series
 
Generally I didn’t get as excited about the BYG/Actuel catalogue as ESP. As Stollman has said by 1968 it was all over, meaning the scene in NY had dissipated, musicians leaving for political reasons and generally from lack of work and respect. To my ears some of the initial, intense energy in the music seemed to have evaporated, perhaps because it was removed from the communities it had developed in, and moved on to something perhaps more sophisticated. But this is just my own personal take and there are some fantastic albums representative of the era.

I think both volumes of the Sun Ra titles are superb, taken from different concerts and rehearsals representing most aspects of their work at that point. I’m also with Jim regarding Steve Lacy and the Don Cherry MU sets, both essential. I also have Jimmy Lyons Other Afternoons, possibly his strongest session as leader. I’m partial to Jack Coursil too, great player and sound. Also Paul Bley; did he ever make a duff album? Art Ensemble’s A Jackson In You House was my first encounter with them, so I have a soft spot for that too. Formative stuff for a 17 year old hungry to hear new things.
 
The interesting thing about both labels is they appear to have been run by complete chancers. Paul Bley has great records on both labels. I don’t have a huge collection of these. I’d say Closer, Spiritual Unity, spirits Rejoice, heliocentric Worlds, New York Art Quartet (with Le Roi Jones) are essential. Paul Bley Ramblin is wonderful.

I thought I had the Sunny Murray records but can’t find them.
 
When I had a quick look I was surprised to learn I had a smattering of Actuel originals:

Don Cherry - Mu Pt 1
Art Ensemble of Chicago - A Jackson In Your House
Sunny Murray - Homage To Africa

The fact that a tightwad like me has a handful is testament to the fact that prices don't seem to have gone crazy! :)

I also have some titles reissued on Affinity with rather unmemorable black sleeves. I'm assuming these are kosher - but how are they viewed in terms of sound quality?
 
When I had a quick look I was surprised to learn I had a smattering of Actuel originals:

Don Cherry - Mu Pt 1
Art Ensemble of Chicago - A Jackson In Your House
Sunny Murray - Homage To Africa

The fact that a tightwad like me has a handful is testament to the fact that prices don't seem to have gone crazy! :)

I also have some titles reissued on Affinity with rather unmemorable black sleeves. I'm assuming these are kosher - but how are they viewed in terms of sound quality?
I thought I had that Sunny Murray as well, but I can't seem to find it. My Double Album composite is BYG23 not Actual 23 that is Clifford Thornton. It does though have the original price sticker that I bought it for 24.25 French Francs. More than 10 Francs to the £ around then. I think the single albums were less, so I don't thing I would have paid more than £15 pounds for all the ones I bought together then. :)
 
Thanks for the Shepp link.
I have been playing quite a bit of South African Ndebele, Pedi and Sotho traditional music today by Malombo and Tau Ea Lesotho that has amazing rhythm's and drumming on Sekupu drums (a hand made drum from an old tyre, a piece of wire and coke bottle tops) and the Molombo's drums are made from the roots of the Baobab tree draped in cowhide. Fantastic sounds from these hand made drums. These records are from the 80's and around then Molombo had toured America and played alongside Sun Ra, Pharoah Sanders and Mingus this has influenced their playing in a sort of reverse direction. These vinyl releases on Kijima Records that I have not played ages sound amazingly good as well.
 
These records are from the 80's and around then Molombo had toured America and played alongside Sun Ra, Pharoah Sanders and Mingus this has influenced their playing in a sort of reverse direction

Interesting, although Sun Ra had hand made drums and ‘drum choirs’ (every member of the band was required to learn and play drums and percussion when required) from the 50s onwards. Mingus was dead by 1980. Are you sure you mean the 80s? Or am I confused and you mean Ra et al influenced Molombo?


Thanks for the Shepp link.

Coincidentally - the New York Contemporary Five ‘Consequences Revisited’ on Ezz-thetics (HatArt) arrived today. Fantastic music by Archie Shepp, John Tchicai, Don Cherry, Don Moore and J.C. Moses, with compositions by all members and Bill Dixon. Very much under the influence of Dixon IMO, and an influential but short lived group that splintered into so many other great projects. Nicely remastered, containing all their recorded studio output. Beautiful.
 
Interesting, although Sun Ra had hand made drums and ‘drum choirs’ (every member of the band was required to learn and play drums and percussion when required) from the 50s onwards. Mingus was dead by 1980. Are you sure you mean the 80s? Or am I confused and you mean Ra et al influenced Molombo?
Sorry I wasn't very clear on both points. I forgot when Mingus died. My record was the first UK release in 1988 where there is a reference to Malombo touring in America and playing with those I mentioned, but I have now seen the record was first released in South Africa in 1980, on a different label, so they were probably in the states before that (and later as well?). The reference I was trying to make re influence was in reference to the Shepp article mentioning African Yoruba talking drums and polyrhythms (and your earlier post about listening to the drums on the ESP's) and the reverse being true in regard to Malombo being influenced by playing alongside American Jazz musicians. Hope that is clearer.
My Black Unity Trio - Al-Fatihah and Rudolf Johnson - Spring reissues arrived today and both of these are excellent as well.
 


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