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Adam Curtis' new series - all available now on iPlayer

A bit tenuous? ;)
Interesting critique here : https://lwlies.com/articles/adam-curtis-hypernormalisation-tricks-and-tactics/
I liked this: "His wall-to-wall voiceover narration is rife with sweeping statements which act as the teetering tentpoles of his thesis."
Yes and no. Yes, or maybe yes, to what might be tenuous connections (I don’t have the expertise to say one way or the other) but no (maybe) to the criticism of the overall thesis. The first episode seemed to be about ancient social and psychological structures based on a dominance that has been undermined and left a sense of anger and resentment towards those that those structures once dominated. When we look at Empire and our ruling elites, this thesis seems valid
 
For example in the first episode he made a link between a 19th century Christian mathematician who used binary logic to attempt to map human reasoning and modern computers and algorithms.

To my mind Curtis is at his weakest when on computer technology, but that just may be that it is something I actually know about. George Boule brought Boolean logic to the world, so the basic AND, OR, NOT, NAND, NOR gates etc that is the basic building blocks of both electronics and computer technology. Curtis isn’t ‘wrong’ in his argument, it is just rather simplistic, kind of like suggesting the person who invented the brick set the trajectory for all buildings from a brick outhouse up to The Pentagon. By saying that I think he plants his links very well as I suspect they do what he intends them to do.

One of things I really liked about the documentary was that after a while the links and narrative start to work on another level and the whole experience becomes like fragmented memories, flashbacks or whatever and the way the very concept of links and patterns is a key subtext it allows the viewer to question his links just as much as those which were clearly either random or cynically planted by disrupters. I actually think it is one of the best pieces of television I have ever seen as it kind of functions on a whole different artistic and psychological level. It is IMO wrong to try and approach this as any kind of linear narrative, it is more about getting you to question your surroundings and the whole concept of narratives, and even history.

I suspect it actually works very similarly to our brains in the way it is trying to make sense of a whole jump-cut scattergun world of information fragments and maybe failing in that aim, but in that process pointing out just how absolutely failed and out-of-time our old 19th-20th century notion of politics has become. Without even mentioning him at all it helped explain why I was totally unable to buy into say Corbynism. Basically it is just more hopeless, powerless nostalgia, it is no more relevant today than Nigel Farage selling imagery of leafy country lanes, spitfires and air-raid sirens. It is all just images of an idealised past that never actually existed. Archaic and obsolete. It makes you question everything, and I think that is a very good thing.
 
To my mind Curtis is at his weakest when on computer technology, but that just may be that it is something I actually know about. George Boule brought Boolean logic to the world, so the basic AND, OR, NOT, NAND, NOR gates etc that is the basic building blocks of both electronics and computer technology. Curtis isn’t ‘wrong’ in his argument, it is just rather simplistic, kind of like suggesting the person who invented the brick set the trajectory for all buildings from a brick outhouse up to The Pentagon. By saying that I think he plants his links very well as I suspect they do what he intends them to do.

One of things I really liked about the documentary was that after a while the links and narrative start to work on another level and the whole experience becomes like fragmented memories, flashbacks or whatever and the way the very concept of links and patterns is a key subtext it allows the viewer to question his links just as much as those which were clearly either random or cynically planted by disrupters. I actually think it is one of the best pieces of television I have ever seen as it kind of functions on a whole different artistic and psychological level. It is IMO wrong to try and approach this as any kind of linear narrative, it is more about getting you to question your surroundings and the whole concept of narratives, and even history.

I suspect it actually works very similarly to our brains in the way it is trying to make sense of a whole jump-cut scattergun world of information fragments and maybe failing in that aim, but in that process pointing out just how absolutely failed and out-of-time our old 19th-20th century notion of politics has become. Without even mentioning him at all it helped explain why I was totally unable to buy into say Corbynism. Basically it is just more hopeless, powerless nostalgia, it is no more relevant today than Nigel Farage selling imagery of leafy country lanes, spitfires and air-raid sirens. It is all just images of an idealised past that never actually existed. Archaic and obsolete. It makes you question everything, and I think that is a very good thing.

Agree with most of that, especially the presentation of disparate themes and events in a way that urges the viewer to consider, or reconsider the wider picture, for themselves.

However that process took me to a very different conclusion on Corbyn.

I’m currently reading and excellent book recommended by @droodzilla on another thread, Jack Shenker's book, Now We Have Your Attention, that the two sources appear to overlap.

It seems to me that in Curtis’s first episode at least, he was making links between the anger of ruling elites towards those that are no longer able to dominate, and the anger and resentment of those once dominated.

Shenker delves into those tensions and the complex relations ships within those tensions that have led to recent social divisions and upheavals, namely the tension between “an organising principle based on free markets, movable money and competition and an ever-growing rivalry between people, companies, cities and regions,”

“In 2008, the economic system that had been constructed around that principle imploded. It did not die altogether, not least because those in power moved heaven and earth to stitch it back together, using audacious innovations to drive it forward, harder and faster than ever before.”

“Basic protections that many had come to expect from the state were stripped away; for some, the fundamental components of a decent life–a secure job and home, a sense of one’s place in the world–drifted further and further out of reach.”


Corbyn stood against that continuum, that narrative, not for it. What’s more he was the only politician who did stand against the continuum of stripping away state protections and a decent quality of life. He might not have been the best politician, or the most able, but he was the *only* politician saying what needed to be said.

Shenker suggests that at the 2017 general election, “the propensity of young people to tell positive stories about themselves (on social media) helped Labour’s campaign messages–which focused on optimistic visions of an alternative future.....in contrast to doom-laden warnings about the consequences of tinkering with the present”

Shenker also says that there was a “failure of political leadership to offer a meaningful critique of the rise and rise of markets [that] has left the door open for the far right to offer an alternative narrative about what has gone wrong and who is to blame”

Now I know you blame Corbyn for the rise of the far right, but the truth is that Corbyn was our best chance of offering that alternative narrative to the far right, but that alternative narrative was sabotaged by the right wing within the Labour Party itself supported by the many centrists outside it.

Curtis and Shenker present a view of a narrative presented by our ruling elites and invite us in their different ways to question that narrative. It seems to me that Corbyn was also one to question that narrative and what’s more the only mainstream politician to question that narrative. He came within a few thousand votes of winning with that narrative in 2017. The right wing fought back and with the help and support of the centrists, took us back to where we are now and where we’ve been for far too long.
 
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Corbyn stood against that continuum, that narrative, not for it. What’s more he was the only politician who did stand against the continuum of stripping away state protections and a decent quality of life. He might not have been the best politician, or the most able, but he was the *only* politician saying what needed to be said.

I find it interesting that Curtis didn’t (that I noticed) even feature Corbyn and the microscopic rebellion he represented at all. I guess he was lost in a sea of world noise, which is appropriate. I think you need to watch the whole thing to get the picture Curtis is framing. My reaction is that I maybe gained a better understanding of current structures and how chaotic and utterly disconnected from populations they are in most respect (I was already hugely cynical and disenfranchised), and a sense of utter futility as the penny drops that this is unchangeable in any real sense, let alone by backward-looking 20th century nostalgia of collective bargaining or whatever Corbyn’s little micro-bubble believed in. It just doesn’t belong in our world, just more background noise and distraction. Even globally significant rebellions such as Black Lives Matter and Extinction Rebellion are ultimately powerless, though they may gain an inch here and there. A tiny subgroup of UK Labour party leftists and obsolete trade unions have no power even over their own party, let alone the wider world, and they never will have. It is like shouting at the rain. In most respects the systems are too complex and chaotic for even those with power to change, so they settle instead for grift and what they can get. The cake is a lie.
 
I find it interesting that Curtis didn’t (that I noticed) even feature Corbyn and the microscopic rebellion he represented at all. I guess he was lost in a sea of world noise, which is appropriate. I think you need to watch the whole thing to get the picture Curtis is framing. My reaction is both gaining a better understanding of current structures and how chaotic and utterly disconnected from populations they are in most respect, and a sense of utter futility as the penny drops that this is unchangeable in any real sense, let alone by backward-looking 20th century nostalgia of collective bargaining or whatever Corbyn’s little micro-bubble believed in. It just doesn’t belong in our world, just more background noise and distraction. Even globally significant rebellions such as Black Lives Matter and Extinction Rebellion are ultimately powerless. A tiny subgroup of UK Labour leftists and obsolete trade unions have no power even over their own party, let alone the wider world, and they never will have. It is like shouting at the rain. In most respects the systems are too complex and chaotic for even those with power to change, so they settle instead for grift and what they can get. The cake is a lie.
I think the point of Shenker's book, Now We Have Your Attention, is that political ruling structures are impenetrable, but that within that there is ground up organising that can have an impact. If we are to challenge the top down narrative, perhaps ground up organising is a way forward? It would be nice if that local organising could speak to a wider audience with a unifying voice from a mainstream political party, but the Labour Party isn’t it.

The Labour Party has shot itself in the foot, not by accident but by taking are full aim, so many times now it’s comical. Not just deliberately aiming WMD at it’s own election chances but even accepting the blame for the crash.

The post 2008 world is, according to Helen Thompson, waiting for a reckoning. By accepting the blame and the narrative for an economic crash caused by institutional greed and corruption, Labour has proved itself to be a willing partner in the very greed and privilege is was brought into being to oppose. The Labour Party was founded to challenge existing structures, but when it comes to the reckoning, Labour proves itself mired in existing structures
 
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One interesting thing that kind of floats up over the eight hours is the rise of people with absolutely no beliefs or ideology at all, e.g. Putin, Trump, Johnson etc. A class of figurehead that is happy to say anything to anyone in order to keep the chaotic global mechanisms on the rails and divert some wealth into their own back pockets at the same time. A very modern type of leader and it is had to beat them with with reason as they won’t/can’t engage as they are ultimately empty vessels. I felt the part on Dominic Cummings was interesting. The impression being he was one of remarkably few in the picture that at least grasped 21st century concepts and structures even if his attempts to play them ultimately proved futile and highly destructive.

The bizarre thing from an irrelevant UK politics perspective is we have ended up with a Conservative Party that is in most respects a good generation or two ahead of Labour in the way it interacts with the modern world. It is exactly what is happening at present right across the world, whereas Labour doesn’t even know what century it is.
 
A large part of the failure of the recent Labour Party seems to stem from the basic issue that what they have to sell (socialism-lite) is stale and irrelevant to today's disengaged voters. New Labour was conservatism-lite and that failed quickly (possibly primarily because of the flaws of its principle prononents, Blair's hubris and arrogance), Corbynism was just the old Socialist Party dogma compounded by a stubborn and conceited refusual to fully engage in modern political debate and Starmer has so far failed to offer anything fresh or coherent and is always going to be hampered by the rabid ideologues who are at the heart of the Party.

It's time for some fresh thinking - but, and not just based on Curtis' material which admittedly shows that the outcomes we would wish for, individually or as a society, existing power structures and the political scum that floats across the surface of that are incapable of delivering the outcomes sought. The "system" will not flex or evolve and the longterm results are largely unforeseeable and unintended.

The fundamental issue as I see it is that we need to be suspicious of those with a driving vision, and on no account should we stand behind those who stand for nothing but themselves. Ergo - we're f$%^d.
 
I haven't seen this particular series, though I have seen other programmes made by Curtis.

One thing that strikes me is that people who would normally be dismissive of, or at least sceptical about conspiracy theories seem to swallow Curtis's theories wholesale. If I've learned one thing from a long-ish life, it's that as often as not events are a result of cock-up far more than they are the result of conspiracy. It's a human trait to see patterns in everything, to join up the dots and to construct a coherent narrative, but as often as not, things just happen at random, and there is no pattern. The 19th century political diarist Charles Greville is valuable in this respect, because he could see events unfolding, and could see how ideas about schemes and plots grew up around unconnected events, which were often due purely to accident, mishaps, and misunderstandings. (He also constantly brooded on what he saw as the inevitable decline of public morals and integrity in public life because of the greed and selfishness of the rich, and the ignorance of the poor).
 
I haven't seen this particular series, though I have seen other programmes made by Curtis.

One thing that strikes me is that people who would normally be dismissive of, or at least sceptical about conspiracy theories seem to swallow Curtis's theories wholesale. If I've learned one thing from a long-ish life, it's that as often as not events are a result of cock-up far more than they are the result of conspiracy. It's a human trait to see patterns in everything, to join up the dots and to construct a coherent narrative, but as often as not, things just happen at random, and there is no pattern. The 19th century political diarist Charles Greville is valuable in this respect, because he could see events unfolding, and could see how ideas about schemes and plots grew up around unconnected events, which were often due purely to accident, mishaps, and misunderstandings. (He also constantly brooded on what he saw as the inevitable decline of public morals and integrity in public life because of the greed and selfishness of the rich, and the ignorance of the poor).
Yes, Curtis does join a lot of dots in a way that sometimes reminds me of ancient stargazers seeing reassuring shapes by joining dots in constellations. It strikes me that anyone could choose to join the same dots in a different way to get a different picture.

However, when Curtis joins the dots between US/UK foreign policy and the shifting view of Gaddafi from hero to villian, to hero and back again it difficult not to see a picture of state deviancy rather than hapless whoopsie.

Overall though, I find his work thought provoking.
 
FWIW I find the way he joins the dots the least interesting part of it, arguably irrelevant. There is a bigger picture to it than that somehow, something that exists beyond choice and influence.
 
I watched the first episode last night, after a mate dropped me a text to say that I might be interested. I thought it went some way to answering my long held question about why society never seems to move on in a meaningful way. All the technological innovations are nothing, if we don't see society improving too. The answer, he says is that the people at the top holding all of the power want things to stay as they are, and similarly, the middle classes want to keep the status quo too. He talked about conspiracy theories too and how they can lead to fear and control the way people think and behave. I've liked what I have seen so far, and will watch the rest of the series.
 
One thing that strikes me is that people who would normally be dismissive of, or at least sceptical about conspiracy theories seem to swallow Curtis's theories wholesale.

But is Curtis proposing a conspiracy? I’m sceptical about some of the dots he joins, but it seems to me that isn’t trying to convince anyone of a conspiracy, but is offering a narrative of recent events that are playing out in the present in much the same way as any historian would present a narrative of the past.

Isn’t Curtis actually doing much the same as Grenville in that he’s looking at unfolding events, ideas, schemes and plots, and instead of defining them as human errors, offers the possibility of connections?

History, afterall, is the story of human intervention, everything else is geography!
 
I watched the first episode last night, after a mate dropped me a text to say that I might be interested. I thought it went some way to answering my long held question about why society never seems to move on in a meaningful way. All the technological innovations are nothing, if we don't see society improving too. The answer, he says is that the people at the top holding all of the power want things to stay as they are, and similarly, the middle classes want to keep the status quo too. He talked about conspiracy theories too and how they can lead to fear and control the way people think and behave. I've liked what I have seen so far, and will watch the rest of the series.

At the end he talks about how inequalities are ever increasing and how Covid, notable for not having been a catastrophe caused by the financial systems / those in power, has shone a light on these inequalities. Also his bafflement at the middle classes' response to Brexit and their failure to come up with any new responses. As mentioned he doesn't really cover Corbyn's Labour party. He does end on a positive note as regards how people are adapting to social media lies. I like the way it showed America, UK, China and Russia to be equally rife with corruption and violence both now and in their histories and how politicians/groups in each country have adopted visions of an imaginary past at certain points in attempts to consolidate/gain/regain power. Also maintaining power through methods of social control, a common Curtis theme this (e.g. drugs, surveillance) and how they are all out of new ideas. And how governments have successively given away powers to banks and big businesses (another common Curtis theme) leaving them powerless to affect change even if they wanted to. The resulting disconnect between those in power/ complex power structures and the people. The material on conspiracy theories is new. Also large parts of it are about the conflict between people seeking fulfilment through individual actualisation vs the power of collective action (both of which provide material for lazy right wing journalists to take predictable swipes at the left). I found the section in episode 6 about Cecil Sharp and deliberate creation of a 'völkisch' vision of England that never existed interesting and will rewatch / explore this. Lots of artistic endeavour is about creating unreal visions of life / love / fantasies but considering the effects of this is interesting. And the way in which these narratives are absorbed by people the world over (e.g. the uncritical view of Britain's role in Hong Kong offered by the BBC in 1997).

I finished watching it last night and did sleep well as the whole thing is hypnotic and put me in a dreamlike state thinking about the dreamlike state that I was about to enter. But this was just a fantasy ha ha.
 
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Agree with most of that, especially the presentation of disparate themes and events in a way that urges the viewer to consider, or reconsider the wider picture, for themselves.

However that process took me to a very different conclusion on Corbyn.

I’m currently reading and excellent book recommended by @droodzilla on another thread, Jack Shenker's book, Now We Have Your Attention, that the two sources appear to overlap.

It seems to me that in Curtis’s first episode at least, he was making links between the anger of ruling elites towards those that are no longer able to dominate, and the anger and resentment of those once dominated.

Shenker delves into those tensions and the complex relations ships within those tensions that have led to recent social divisions and upheavals, namely the tension between “an organising principle based on free markets, movable money and competition and an ever-growing rivalry between people, companies, cities and regions,”

“In 2008, the economic system that had been constructed around that principle imploded. It did not die altogether, not least because those in power moved heaven and earth to stitch it back together, using audacious innovations to drive it forward, harder and faster than ever before.”

“Basic protections that many had come to expect from the state were stripped away; for some, the fundamental components of a decent life–a secure job and home, a sense of one’s place in the world–drifted further and further out of reach.”


Corbyn stood against that continuum, that narrative, not for it. What’s more he was the only politician who did stand against the continuum of stripping away state protections and a decent quality of life. He might not have been the best politician, or the most able, but he was the *only* politician saying what needed to be said.

Shenker suggests that at the 2017 general election, “the propensity of young people to tell positive stories about themselves (on social media) helped Labour’s campaign messages–which focused on optimistic visions of an alternative future.....in contrast to doom-laden warnings about the consequences of tinkering with the present”

Shenker also says that there was a “failure of political leadership to offer a meaningful critique of the rise and rise of markets [that] has left the door open for the far right to offer an alternative narrative about what has gone wrong and who is to blame”

Now I know you blame Corbyn for the rise of the far right, but the truth is that Corbyn was our best chance of offering that alternative narrative to the far right, but that alternative narrative was sabotaged by the right wing within the Labour Party itself supported by the many centrists outside it.

Curtis and Shenker present a view of a narrative presented by our ruling elites and invite us in their different ways to question that narrative. It seems to me that Corbyn was also one to question that narrative and what’s more the only mainstream politician to question that narrative. He came within a few thousand votes of winning with that narrative in 2017. The right wing fought back and with the help and support of the centrists, took us back to where we are now and where we’ve been for far too long.
Interesting that you compare it with Shenker's book. I enjoy Curtis's work, but one of my reservations about it (apart from whether it ultimately makes sense) is that it can lead to a kind of fatalism - what can we, as individuals, do to influence the vast impersonal forces (social, economic, political, technological) that we are subject to?

Shenker's book acknowedges those forces, while insisting (and showing, with many examples) that as long as people come together and organise themselves, there is hope. The forms of organisation might differ from the ones we are familiar with (the old unions, the Labour Party, whatever) but they are more necessary now than they have ever been.

The book is a wonderful antidote to the individualistic perspective which is almost bound to lead to isolation and fatalism, as well as being a deeply impressive meditation on the state of the country (the chapter on Tilbury Docks remains the best thing I have read about Brexit).
 
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However, when Curtis joins the dots between US/UK foreign policy and the shifting view of Gaddafi from hero to villian, to hero and back again it difficult not to see a picture of state deviancy rather than hapless whoopsie.

But that has always happened, as with Stalin, who was a hero for as long as it took us to win WW2. British foreign policy has always been about expediency; as Lord Palmerston put it: 'We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow.'
 
The bit where someone posited that gun nuts have small genitals seems perfectly reasonable.
 
But that has always happened, as with Stalin, who was a hero for as long as it took us to win WW2. British foreign policy has always been about expediency; as Lord Palmerston put it: 'We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow.'
Precisely my point; deliberate shenanigans rather than unfortunate cock up
 


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