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DECCA cart's. What's the fuss about?

Mike Reed said:
PS. Does any body know the variants from, say, C4E? Or have there been too many over that period? Preferably with line contact stylus (which I think rules out a standard C4E?)
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Decca MKIV ffss C4E - Variable Reluctance Stereo Pick-up Cartridge - Hi-Fi News - July 1967

Review - Part 1
review%20-%20decca%20mk4%20%20c4e%20-%20hi-fi%20news%20-%20july%2067%20-%20pt%201.jpg


Review - Part 2
review%20-%20decca%20mk4%20%20c4e%20-%20hi-fi%20news%20-%20july%2067%20-%20pt%202.jpg


Some other good kit review links on SATURN SOUND Recording Services ...

http://www.saturn-sound.com/history/hi-fi, reviews.htm#Decca MKIV ffss C4E

More...

http://www.saturn-sound.com/history/the hi-fi section.htm

Enjoy.

PS: An old thread on pfm from 2011...

https://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/decca-c4e.93862/

:)
 
topoxforddoc said:
That’s my old thread in 2011. My C4E is still my daily user - stunning cartridge. It has just been swapped from my Hadcock, which I have had for 40 years. It’s now on my Schroeder Model 2 and sounding even better.
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Glad your still here on pfm Charlie.

Interesting web-site and blog you have.

Check him out guys.
 
Mike Reed said:
I know little or nothing about Decca models, VTFs required, stylus cleaning of their delicate short canti's or fitting to normal headshells. I was tempted by a recently advertised C4E, which got my mind going. Am I chasing a dead duck here or would I be rewarded by something totally different from my Proteus, Benz Ebony, K Urushi, Lyra etc. type cart's ?

Lots of Decca aficionados and experts here. Please educate me.
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Probably the most life like live sound in a commonly available cartridge. The ultra rare Neumann DST is reportedly just a touch better. The vintage FFSS MkIVs (like your old black one) is not far off the current top of the line London Reference at £3k. The tin bodied (Grey/Blue MkV, Maroon/Gold/SuperGold Mk VI) are not IMO as good as a rebuilt Mk IV FFSS. Even my Garrott Brothers Gold pales in comparison to the C4E. The earlier Decca have Parmeko coils and a more rigid, less resonant bakelite body.

They have virtually zero vertical compliance and transmit a lot of energy into the air bearing. Good matches include unipivots, air bearing arms and heavy gimballed tonearms. Records have to be kept scrupulously clean; I wet clean mine on a vintage Keith Monks Mk II RCM. Set one up correctly and there is no other cartridge like it.

Playing my records with my Decca is the closest to the 15 IPS 1/4 inch master tapes. I have several albums where I can compare the 15 IPS tape to a high quality pressing. The Decca is definitely the closest.

Charlie
 
topoxforddoc said:
It’s now on my Schroeder Model 2 and sounding even better.
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You pobably recall that I was mulling over the idea of buying a Model 2 and have been trawling the www a bit more.................
One reviewer was very highly impressed, but also made a comment that like so many things, is blindingly obvious once it is pointed out. Because the arm itself is supended on a chord, if the armtube is anything but exactly parallel to the record, the chord is unable to hang exactly vertical and so alters the tracking force - if the headshell is low, the tracking force is reduced and if it is high, the force is increased. It is claimed that the difference betwen a normal weight and 180g pressing can make a difference of 0.5g to the tracking weight unless the arm is re-levelled.

Thoughts?
 
Vinny said:
You pobably recall that I was mulling over the idea of buying a Model 2 and have been trawling the www a bit more.................
One reviewer was very highly impressed, but also made a comment that like so many things, is blindingly obvious once it is pointed out. Because the arm itself is supended on a chord, if the armtube is anything but exactly parallel to the record, the chord is unable to hang exactly vertical and so alters the tracking force - if the headshell is low, the tracking force is reduced and if it is high, the force is increased. It is claimed that the difference betwen a normal weight and 180g pressing can make a difference of 0.5g to the tracking weight unless the arm is re-levelled.

Thoughts?
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OK I have just done a check and measurements with a micrometer and my Rega Atlas gauge.
A standard LP is 1.7-1.8 mm in thickness
A 180 gm LP is 2.1 mm in thickness
A 200 gm LP is 2.2 mm in thickness
I used a greeting card spacer which measure 0.4 mm thickness under the Rega Atlas to examine the VTF differences according to LP thickness. I did this for both Schroeders on my Platine Verdier - Model 2 and Reference.
Adding 0.4 mm height or LP thickness adds 0.05-0.10 g VTF on both Schroeder tonearms. This difference is similar to other tonearm designs - certainly no different for my Hadcock.
 
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^^^ Many thanks, and thanks again for being so thorough.

Just a shame that the Shroder arms have gone up by around 30% since 1st January.......
 
Darmok. lots of interesting stuff & pfm history posts there; thanks.

Topoxforddoc. Charlie, I had wondered about set-up (and playing) differences between the different thickness LPs but by and large, haven't noticed a great change in s.q. between my 180g ones (luckily, few in number) and the older LPs. I have some which seem even thinner that what you consider the standard LP (quite old) I only use 12" arms and this probably minimises VTA changes etc on the different thickness LPs.

The thought of changing VTA (and only experimentally at that) for my 180g records is not a feasible consideration at all.
 
Mike Reed said:
Darmok. lots of interesting stuff & pfm history posts there; thanks.

Topoxforddoc. Charlie, I had wondered about set-up (and playing) differences between the different thickness LPs but by and large, haven't noticed a great change in s.q. between my 180g ones (luckily, few in number) and the older LPs. I have some which seem even thinner that what you consider the standard LP (quite old) I only use 12" arms and this probably minimises VTA changes etc on the different thickness LPs.

The thought of changing VTA (and only experimentally at that) for my 180g records is not a feasible consideration at all.
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Mike
Here’s an explanation on how VTF varies with tonearm pivot height and angulation.
https://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/in_balance_e.html
 
topoxforddoc said:
Mike
Here’s an explanation on how VTF varies with tonearm pivot height and angulation.
https://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/in_balance_e.html
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It is somewhat worse with the model 2 as unless the wand sits horizontally, the thread will have a kink in it due to the magnets trying to pull it into position. The magnets trying to do that changes VTF even further, but not by much, it seems, from your measurements.
No photograph online shows enough detail, but if the thread sits inside an over-sized hole, that kink will be small or non-existant when moving record thicknesses, the thread will just not pass through the centre of the bore.
 
I once asked Len Gregory AKA The Cartridgeman what he would use if he did not make his own cartridges without pause he replied Decca tracking in his Conductor air bearing arm or something like my modified Hadcock 242 Super Silver. A course I will have to examine when my Musicmaster needs replacing, looking at the flat top maroon it would take Len's Isolator I have a spare solving the problem of fitting the Decca to 1/2" hole head-shell.
 
I always remember reading in Hi-fi Critic that Deccas have 9% 3rd harmonic distortion, which might explain the distinctive sound.
 
Nagraboy said:
I always remember reading in Hi-fi Critic that Deccas have 9% 3rd harmonic distortion, which might explain the distinctive sound.
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If you take a look on their website, there is a potted history of how the company came to make phono cartridges in the first place. Based on that, you'd say that that harmonic was unlikely, but never say never.

One thing is certain, if anyone was designing a cart' totally from scratch, I very much doubt that anyone would come up with such an apparently insane design any time soon. But it very obviously does lots of things very right, but does any other manufacturer make anything even remotely similar in mechanical details?
 
topoxforddoc said:
Mike
Here’s an explanation on how VTF varies with tonearm pivot height and angulation.
https://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/in_balance_e.html
Click to expand...

Thanks for that, but, as with most diagrams (Craig will confirm this), it's over my head; far too complicated and trying to explain too many things at once. I can't see one mention of arm length difference, which was my question/suggestion. To my mind, the longer an arm, the less the VTA. Is this really flawed logic?
 
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