DECCA cart's. What's the fuss about?

[Mike Reed]

I used to have a Decca; either a C4E or simple London black one, in around '76 but got rid of it because of diving headlong into quadraphonics. Can't remember the arm, but think it might have been the Decca International unipivot. Deck could have been a Thorens 125/2.

Memory's a bit hazy about that period, which involved first house, first wife and first child. I DO remember the vividness of the sound, though, as well as the inconsistency of surface noise etc.

I have a 12" Ace Anna unipivot, which would be a real match for a Decca, I reckon, and I fancy trying one before I sell that arm, which is a marriage with Lyras, pretty good with Benz and Transfig. but not for Koetsu (and, I imagine, other similarly rich, darkish cart's ike Miyajima, e.g. Hence eventual change to a heavier mass gimballed arm.

I know little or nothing about Decca models, VTFs required, stylus cleaning of their delicate short canti's or fitting to normal headshells. I was tempted by a recently advertised C4E, which got my mind going. Am I chasing a dead duck here or would I be rewarded by something totally different from my Proteus, Benz Ebony, K Urushi, Lyra etc. type cart's ?

Lots of Decca aficionados and experts here. Please educate me.

 

[Tony L]

I DO remember the vividness of the sound

That is what they do. Just astonishingly dynamic and immediate. I’ve only heard a few over the years but they have all left a large impression, and far more so than very expensive MC carts. The C4E is the one to have, the bakelite body being better than the thin tin of the Londons. One is still on my ‘things I still need to do’ list.

 

[yeti42]

What about the Jubilee and Reference?
I have a mono Maroon with the plastic mount and yes the vividness is addictive but there are some discs, even mono ones, that just sound crap on it, piano in particular can suffer from a sort of drain pipe colouration but when it works it works very well. I use it on an Aro on a Rock and have refitted the paddle and the damping trough for the London, still a little below the recommended mass maybe but not by much and very effective damping, nevertheless it can still jump out of the occasional groove.
I almost ordered a Reference the other day, I managed to stop myself but the itch is still there. Would it work as a sole cartridge, even for orchestral music where I like a bit of scale? As think I said elsewhere the SPU does the latter well and gets to the emotion but the Decca, when it’s working well can draw you in deeper.

Having two decks is a bit like being a man with two watches who never knows quite what time it is.

 

[Rosewind]

I am no expert but traded an Ortofon Quintet Black for a nice Decca Maroon - at the low end of the pecking order. I have only spent very little time listening as I had three arms diverting attention, but I like its vivid quality and clarity, and I am looking forward to being able to use it perfectly with my new EAR toy - an EAR 324. The Maroon is in the process of being moved to my Poul Ladegaard tonearm (if I dare).

 

[wylton]

One is still on my ‘things I still need to do’ list.

I thought you tried one relatively recently Tony and it didn't work out?

 

[Tony L]

I thought you tried one relatively recently Tony and it didn't work out?

The one I bought (eBay) was sadly faulty, just crazy microphonic, so I sent it back for a refund.

PS I do also have an issue in that I very much prefer the ferrous iron TD-124 platter to the light alloy one. It really sounds a lot better, and you can’t use Deccas with that one due to magnetic attraction. Basically much as I like the idea of a Decca it would end up being a very expensive project as I’d end up having to pay out for a third-party high-mass 124 platter (I tried the Schopper but was disappointed by the build quality so eventually sent it back), plus I’d likely want to use a different more suitable arm too (maybe a Decca Professional as it would look absolutely right on the vintage 124, maybe a Morch or even a Hadcock, though they do make me swear). As such much as I like the idea I doubt I’ll actually do it as everything is so well balanced as it stands with the MP-500.

 

[Craig B]

What about the Jubilee and Reference?
I have a mono Maroon with the plastic mount and yes the vividness is addictive but there are some discs, even mono ones, that just sound crap on it, piano in particular can suffer from a sort of drain pipe colouration but when it works it works very well. I use it on an Aro on a Rock and have refitted the paddle and the damping trough for the London, still a little below the recommended mass maybe but not by much and very effective damping, nevertheless it can still jump out of the occasional groove.
I almost ordered a Reference the other day, I managed to stop myself but the itch is still there. Would it work as a sole cartridge, even for orchestral music where I like a bit of scale? As think I said elsewhere the SPU does the latter well and gets to the emotion but the Decca, when it’s working well can draw you in deeper.

Having two decks is a bit like being a man with two watches who never knows quite what time it is.

I've a theory that solo piano reproduction, in particular, is likely to reveal combinations of notes that set off parasitic resonances within both the tie back cord and cantilever* that are harmonically related, hence the occasional 'drain pipe' colouration.

Solo piano can certainly reveal what is both right and wrong with record decks and cartridges.

Decca London Super Gold, kind of scary looking up close (in a steam punk S&M sort of way):

* Yes, there exists a cantilever (later described as 'armature'), it's just oddly shaped and mostly internal.

[Image Credit: Decca]

 

[Mike Reed]

(maybe a Decca Professional

Never heard of that; thought the FFSS and International were their only arms, the latter being a successor to the other.

* Yes, there exists a cantilever, it's just oddly shaped and mostly internal.

[Image Credit: Decca]

I've just gone right off the idea, Craig. It must be a diagrammatic thing !

 

[Tony L]

Never heard of that; thought the FFSS and International were their only arms, the latter being a successor to the other.

It was a rather more complex one that arrived when Decca started to introduce better stylus profiles, one on eBay here. Quite rare compared to the other variants. I’m not a fan of running with no bias though, too much the geeky record collector for that.

 

[andrewrona]

What about the Jubilee and Reference?
I have a mono Maroon with the plastic mount and yes the vividness is addictive but there are some discs, even mono ones, that just sound crap on it, piano in particular can suffer from a sort of drain pipe colouration but when it works it works very well. I use it on an Aro on a Rock and have refitted the paddle and the damping trough for the London, still a little below the recommended mass maybe but not by much and very effective damping, nevertheless it can still jump out of the occasional groove.
I almost ordered a Reference the other day, I managed to stop myself but the itch is still there. Would it work as a sole cartridge, even for orchestral music where I like a bit of scale? As think I said elsewhere the SPU does the latter well and gets to the emotion but the Decca, when it’s working well can draw you in deeper.

Having two decks is a bit like being a man with two watches who never knows quite what time it is.

I did have a resonance problem with my 4CE in particular piano and wind instruments on certain records would have a wiggle resonant sound , I mentioned this to John Wright and he changed the internal damping, totally cured now! This is my absolute finest I have ever experienced and I have had a few MC in my time, I dont encounter any of the associated problems that are brought up from time to time, it is a revelation period ! I might add that the VTA is approx 5mm up at the tail end of my arm(airline). I also have the RC model which I will send in sometime for a paratrace stylus which will push the performance further. And its a moving iron so no worries on SUT to scratch that itch if required .

 

[Mike Reed]

It was a rather more complex one that arrived when Decca started to introduce better stylus profiles, one on eBay here.

Thanks for that, Tony. It does look a little bit unlike my FFSS/International as far as my memory serves, so I was unaware of this one. As you mention it has no anti-skate, my friend bought the heavy Glanz 12" arm before Christmas and that is designed with no bias control, and that's a pricy arm ! I'm not aware that the design actually incorporates an alternative anti-skate either. I am fairly convinced that 12" arms require less anti-skate than a shorter one but, like you, I've got used to having this feature.

Not sure why Glanz didn't just incorporate a removable biasing system in that stainless steel arm.

PS. Does any body know the variants from, say, C4E? Or have there been too many over that period? Preferably with line contact stylus (which I think rules out a standard C4E?)

 

[Shuggie]

Not sure why Glanz didn't just incorporate a removable biasing system in that stainless steel arm.

Top line Glanz arms do have a swinging weight bias mechanism fitted, much like those fitted to old FR arms. It can be removed entirely in a matter of moments.

 

[andrewrona]

Thanks for that, Tony. It does look a little bit unlike my FFSS/International as far as my memory serves, so I was unaware of this one. As you mention it has no anti-skate, my friend bought the heavy Glanz 12" arm before Christmas and that is designed with no bias control, and that's a pricy arm ! I'm not aware that the design actually incorporates an alternative anti-skate either. I am fairly convinced that 12" arms require less anti-skate than a shorter one but, like you, I've got used to having this feature.

Not sure why Glanz didn't just incorporate a removable biasing system in that stainless steel arm.

PS. Does any body know the variants from, say, C4E? Or have there been too many over that period? Preferably with line contact stylus (which I think rules out a standard C4E?)

https://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=545.3855
Plenty info here if you've not looked at yet.

 

[Miss Ariel]

I used to flat share with a mate who worked for the Cornflake Shop in London and he then went on to become Roksan's UK sales rep so loads of kit brought home over 3 years.

Never forget my first exposure to a Supergold on a Xerxes - RB 300. I have never heard a cartridge with such fast transients and life.Just so exciting to listen to.Seemed to give what ever you played on it come alive.
It was just so effervescent and full of life.
I know from using and hearing expensive moving coils there more polished and refined maybe,but that Supergold we used for 3 months was incredible.
Urge any of the vinyl lovers here to listen to one,if you haven't already - Their really something special....magic !

 

[AndyU]

I had a Decca London and Hancock arm back in the day. Thrilling sound. Even with the amp off, the microphony was magnificent. Paet of the thrill I guess was the way it ploughed through your vinyl recutting everything in its path. I lost a fair few albums.

 

[hermit]

Hancock.... I lost a fair few albums.

I wouldn't have lent him my records in the first place. Clearly an imbecile.

 

[clivem2]

Arm matching is particularly important as there’s no vertical compliance. I run my London Reference on an air bearing arm with compliance built into the wand. It’s a superb cartridge...don’t underestimate the need for the right arm. A wrong arm for it results in mistracking.

 

[Rosewind]

Hancock looks too much like a good friend of mine. I feel sorry for my friend. Also because he is "London Decca-less". He bought my Alfred Bokrand Ortofon 230 tonearm, so don't pity him too much.

 

[clivem2]

He looks more like a Haddock.

 

[Craig B]

Top line Glanz arms do have a swinging weight bias mechanism fitted, much like those fitted to old FR arms. It can be removed entirely in a matter of moments.

I've no experience of the Glanz tonearms, however, I do recall from my days (nights usually) installing FR arms that the swing arm anti-skate mechanism was an interesting thing.

With the FR models that feature this mechanism, one adjusts the main outrigger armature that holds the weight such that it sits level to the record when the arm is swung in over the lead in groove. From this starting point the armature slowly swings upward as the tonearm proceeds inward across the record, gradually reducing the amount of anti-skate force along the way; this due to the centre of mass of the weight moving toward the armature pivot in the lateral plane.

This gradual reduction of AS force ties in with the graph posted over in @Mike Reed's 'My cantilever is biassed but which way?' thread (but for the fact that the AS force does not begin to increase again at near end of record side).

I am also reminded that with my original Mission 774 (and on all those that I installed at work) the thread was just the right length to have the swing arm sit level at record edge. One knew that the thread had become dislodged from the thread guide by ones armature hanging too low at record start.

P.S. Another elegant way of achieving variable bias force as the tonearm traverses the record side is via magnets. Being capable of both repulsion and attraction, magnets can be arranged such that they follow the skating force curve quite closely.