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Is Brexit a Very English Thing?

Well, the Welsh voted in favour of Brexit, and although it was rejected in Scotland and Nothern Ireland, a sizeable minority did vote Brexit. So no, it's not an English thing. The Guardian has for donkey's years been droning on about the English losing their identity, so I guess your trying to make sort of Centrist argument.

English people living in Wales tilted it towards Brexit, research finds
Areas of Wales with big English communities had larger leave vote in 2016, according to study

Despite being one of the biggest beneficiaries of EU funding, Wales voted leave by a majority of 52% to 48% in the 2016 referendum – a result that took some analysts by surprise. However, work by Danny Dorling, a professor of geography at Oxford, found that the result could in part be attributed to the influence of English voters.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/22/english-people-wales-brexit-research
 
Excellent.



Your first paragraph is interesting bar the certitude that these things add up to 'the root cause of brexit'. The sense of loss of identity, and by extension confidence is interesting though. I suspect that it's far from confined to the English, it may well be the stimulant that is exciting secessionist sympathies in Scotland and Catalonia, amongst others. Have you considered that the homogenising instincts of the EU project itself bear some responsibility?

Be wary of asserting that people aren't frightened of the EU. Is it not possible that a theatrical, even if mutually destructive, exhibition of EU fearmongering is taking place right now, and in very deliberately plain view?

no, you’re right it’s not just the English, but it’s worse here.

And I agree that the EU bears some responsibility for anti-EU sentiment, though I don’t think it’s about identity, and I don’t think the EU is homogenising. I think that’s a Brexiter myth.
 
English people living in Wales tilted it towards Brexit, research finds
Areas of Wales with big English communities had larger leave vote in 2016, according to study

Despite being one of the biggest beneficiaries of EU funding, Wales voted leave by a majority of 52% to 48% in the 2016 referendum – a result that took some analysts by surprise. However, work by Danny Dorling, a professor of geography at Oxford, found that the result could in part be attributed to the influence of English voters.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/22/english-people-wales-brexit-research

It's nice to know that those who move to Wales are not welcomed and considered as really being Welsh. :)
 
Wales has never been a country in the way Scotland was. Before the Norman English/French occupation and genocide it was a couple of principalities. Castles were built in the fertile lowlands and the locals replaced by force.
In the 19th century coal was exploited by migrant Cornish ex tin miners. You can still see the names in the graveyards.
Later migrants came in for the oil refining boom - I am one of those.
Finally up to today, cheap housing (no jobs) and the coast made West Wales a favourite retirement location from the Midlands to free up house capital.
Lack of spending on hospitals has made the people already there resent more incomers.
 
It's nice to know that those who move to Wales are not welcomed and considered as really being Welsh. :)
In the context of a thread about how people self identify, I’m not sure how relevant this is. The point is that in pro Brexit areas like the red wall, people identified themselves as English above British. If the evidence now points to the fact that something similar happened in Wales, the question remains the same .... is Brexit a very English thing?

I’m given to understand that the English Brexit is most unwelcome in many areas of the UK, not just areas of Wales
 
In the context of a thread about how people self identify, I’m not sure how relevant this is. The point is that in pro Brexit areas like the red wall, people identified themselves as English above British. If the evidence now points to the fact that something similar happened in Wales, the question remains the same .... is Brexit a very English thing?

I’m given to understand that the English Brexit is most unwelcome in many areas of the UK, not just areas of Wales

There's a handful of England flags on poles and windows in my neighbourhood and around town... And this is in Oxford, which voted to Remain (70%).
 
Whiffy....someone open a window.

In the context of a thread about how people self identify, I’m not sure how relevant this is. The point is that in pro Brexit areas like the red wall, people identified themselves as English above British. If the evidence now points to the fact that something similar happened in Wales, the question remains the same .... is Brexit a very English thing?

I’m given to understand that the English Brexit is most unwelcome in many areas of the UK, not just areas of Wales

First off, agree with the self identity part.

Apologies for making such a short post previously, and apologies if it's off-piste with the thread topic but the Graun article hints at a slightly 'whiffy' question around who has the right to decide on behalf of this thing we call 'Wales'. There is an inference that the majority leave vote returned by the voters in the geographically defined area of Wales is not valid because it is somehow not a true reflection of the 'Welsh' (whatever that means). Over time, people have moved to Wales from other areas and has changed the character / demographic of Wales. They live in Wales, they probably work there, and although they don't have to take a citizenship test to do it, are they Welsh and do they (should they) represent the country's views?

It's no different to anyone moving to the UK. I think we all agree that they can be proud of their heritage and they have every right to have a say in the fate of their country they have chosen to live in. If it's different in this case of Brexit, I'd like to know why you think that.
 
I guess the question is how they self identify.
This is a far from simple question.
For instance I'd say anyone who moved here from england or anywhere else, and made efforts to learn Welsh held the place and people in genuine affection.
However, just as in the lake district, or the dales, there is distinct resentment at buying up of local property for holiday homes, or just as dwellings for high prices, and pushing house prices out of the reach of local first time buyers. Or most locals for that matter.
When this impacts adversely on the fragile state of the Welsh language, as it undoubtedly does in a way not seen in the lakes with english, there will be resentment on that score as well. Particlarly if incomers choose to still identify as english.
I don't think you can directly equate this with england, as english is most certainly not a language under threat.
So, like it or not, and I'm not sure I do wholely agree with it, retirees and second home owners, who move to Wales to live in a bubble and displace locals will not be viewed with much affection. Oh, they have a perfect legal right to do so, and be regarded as equal in every way to the indigenous population, nevertheless it can be argued they are blinkered and insensitive to do so.
Particlarly if the insensitivity they show extends to voting brexit in their adopted country, a country not so inclined.
NB I observe incomers moving here, making efforts to learn Welsh, embracing local culture are generally welcomed warmly.
 
Thanks for the considered answer. Just a couple of follow ups.

Particlarly if the insensitivity they show extends to voting brexit in their adopted country, a country not so inclined.

This gets to the heart of my question / confusion / difficulty in understanding. The country was so inclined; the vote was clearly for leave. The only reason I can see for the assertion is based on the assumption that Brexit is an English thing and so people who live in Wales but voted Leave must have done so because they consider themselves English first. This smacks a little of the 'No True Scotsman' fallacy. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman).

I get that those who use Wales as a holiday home might not have the 'love' for the country but it would be interesting to see how those who choose to live there see themselves and their relationship to their chosen country of residence.
 
Over time, people have moved to Wales from other areas and has changed the character / demographic of Wales. They live in Wales, they probably work there, and although they don't have to take a citizenship test to do it, are they Welsh and do they (should they) represent the country's views?
What we think of as Welsh is generally those of Celtic ancestry. Who pushed out the earlier Iberians. So how far back do you want to go?

It's no different to anyone moving to the UK. I think we all agree that they can be proud of their heritage and they have every right to have a say in the fate of their country they have chosen to live in. If it's different in this case of Brexit, I'd like to know why you think that.
It's different because those who suddenly discovered, to their horror, that they are not the majority they fondly believed they were, are looking for any reason to deny this.
 
There's a handful of England flags on poles and windows in my neighbourhood and around town... And this is in Oxford, which voted to Remain (70%).

So you *can* be pro-remain and not be embarrassed about an English heritage. Whoddathoughtit? ;)
 
What we think of as Welsh is generally those of Celtic ancestry. Who pushed out the earlier Iberians. So how far back do you want to go?


It's different because those who suddenly discovered, to their horror, that they are not the majority they fondly believed they were, are looking for any reason to deny this.


Not the majority? Can you actually manage basic maths? Less than 75% turnout means that, over 25% didn't a damn either way. The far right knew this and that's solely why it was not a legally binding referendum as they knew damn full well they could never reach the "super majority" needed in a legal referendum. Plus, the utterly illegal activities of the leave campaign would have meant a legally binding campaign would have seen the result struck down and another vote called.

Brexit was designed by cynically stupid people to appeal to ignorant people and in that sense it succeeded. Don't pretend it was anything other than an attempt to create an offshore tax haven for the super rich and criminal rich to hide their assets.
 
In the context of a thread about how people self identify, I’m not sure how relevant this is. The point is that in pro Brexit areas like the red wall, people identified themselves as English above British. If the evidence now points to the fact that something similar happened in Wales, the question remains the same .... is Brexit a very English thing?

I’m given to understand that the English Brexit is most unwelcome in many areas of the UK, not just areas of Wales
Many English people didn't vote for Brexit, and many non Englsh people did, so I don't think you can argue that it is just an English thing. It is a combination of many factors, but most Brexit commentary fixated on just one thing.
 
Of course, the politically refreshing thing about the ref was that it mattered not where you lived in the way it does with a GE. Every single vote counted equally, wherever you were from or happened to live at the time.
 
How many of the English who move to Wales consider themselves as really being Welsh?
None, surely. I'm English, I lived in France for a while. Totally integrated, spoke the language, worked in a French workplace, resident in France. Just a European enjoying his right to free movement. But I remained English. Same goes for my Iranian neighbour, my Indian friend (who actually has NZ nationality and lives in the UK), you don't change nationality and cultural identity by putting your stuff in a furniture van.
 


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