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New Technics owners - anyone missing the sound from their old belt drive

I've had a 1210GR now for a few weeks, and before that ran a stock 1200 Mk2 for about 8 months.
Do I miss belt drive? - no, the GR to me is unswervingly neutral, clean and stable. It reminds of good digital in many ways, but then so do top end Rega decks so I don't think it's the drive system alone.
What is lacks is a warmth found on many, particularly suspended decks such as Linn, some Thorens, Michell. You can introduce some of this with a felt mat, more successfully on the GR than the Mk2 as the former puts more mass in the platter without reliance on a heavy rubber mat to increase the platter mass. Better arm on the GR, and the feet definitely work better than those on the Mk2.

Will it be my last main/reference TT? - No, I'd like that to be a Niad but I'll never afford one so plan on picking up a Planar 10 at some point.
 
Haha, I have just bought (or will be tomorrow) a 1210GR, the one in the classifieds that popped up today.

I really want to like it and at the price I paid, if I don't I can sell it on with little or no loss. That is not my intention though, I really hope its a keeper.

@Robert your now the 2nd person that has said a felt mat adds a bit of warmth, so will use the one I have here and see how it goes.

Looking forward to it now, especially as I am currently listening to Cosmedelica live using a pair of 1200s over a live stream and they sound really, really good. I'm probably hearing what I want to hear!

At the end of the day, when you see what else you can get for a £1000, it's not a great deal IMO. Rega P6, yes, a good deck most likely, but not much else.

Thanks for all the input, you are very good. I will report back after some serious listening.
 
halvis said:
Haha, I have just bought (or will be tomorrow) a 1210GR, the one in the classifieds that popped up today.

I really want to like it and at the price I paid, if I don't I can sell it on with little or no loss. That is not my intention though, I really hope its a keeper.

@Robert your now the 2nd person that has said a felt mat adds a bit of warmth, so will use the one I have here and see how it goes.

Looking forward to it now, especially as I am currently listening to Cosmedelica live using a pair of 1200s over a live stream and they sound really, really good. I'm probably hearing what I want to hear!

At the end of the day, when you see what else you can get for a £1000, it's not a great deal IMO. Rega P6, yes, a good deck most likely, but not much else.

Thanks for all the input, you are very good. I will report back after some serious listening.
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Buy a Rega P9/10 mat - these are much thinner than the usual felt mats and you can sit them atop the supplied rubber mat (which adds a little to the platter mass).

Simple experiment - place a record on the rubber mat and tap the edge of the record. You'll get a dead clunk clunk.
Do the same with the felt and you get a more resonant, warmer sound.
The vibrating stylus excites the vinyl, it makes a sound which the stylus hears as fast decay reverb, in effect.

In audio mixing and acoustics there are the concepts of wet and dry sound. Dry being the direct feed, wet being the reverberation or delayed sound.
A felt mat increases the proportion of the latter you hear in the reproduced sound when compared to a rubber mat.
 
Robert said:
Simple experiment - place a record on the rubber mat and tap the edge of the record. You'll get a dead clunk clunk.
Do the same with the felt and you get a more resonant, warmer sound.
The vibrating stylus excites the vinyl, it makes a sound.
Click to expand...

Might not be anything like that simple! One could easily argue the rubber mat is a damper/absorber and actually dissipates energy rather than allowing the cartridge to transmit it. I know some turntable designers argue that using a plastic (acrylic etc) platter “impedance matches” the vinyl to the platter, Michell being one IIRC. With anything to do with physics it is a huge mistake to assume the behaviour of a material when tapped or flicked is how it behaves at audio frequencies. Examples being the audio myths of tonearm “rigidity”, high-mass being good in speaker cabinets, ‘Linn tight’ etc etc. There is a lot more to it IMHO. A classic example being say the golf-ball in gloop ‘bearing’ of a Well Tempered turntable, it doesn’t behave as some would expect being more than rigid enough at audio frequencies.

PS There was a trend for a while in the late-70s for very thick, heavy and soft rubber turntable mats, e.g. Spectra, Dumpa etc. Not at all good IIRC.
 
Tony L said:
Might not be anything like that simple! One could easily argue the rubber mat is a damper/absorber and actually dissipates energy rather than allowing the cartridge to transmit it. I know some turntable designers argue that using a plastic (acrylic etc) platter “impedance matches” the vinyl to the platter, Michell being one IIRC. With anything to do with physics it is a huge mistake to assume the behaviour of a material when tapped or flicked is how it behaves at audio frequencies. Examples being the audio myths of tonearm “rigidity”, high-mass being good in speaker cabinets, ‘Linn tight’ etc etc. There is a lot more to it IMHO. A classic example being say the golf-ball in gloop ‘bearing’ of a Well Tempered turntable, it doesn’t behave as some would expect being more than rigid enough at audio frequencies.

PS There was a trend for a while in the late-70s for very thick, heavy and soft rubber turntable mats, e.g. Spectra, Dumpa etc. Not at all good IIRC.
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I don't disagree, but rubber mats, especially the soft ones like those popular in the 70s do damp the vinyl.
When you tap a vinyl record you hear the resonant frequency of the vinyl, and a cartridge energised in that area of the spectrum will excite the vinyl.
The choice you have is to damp it, try to ground it (the 'impedance matched' platter) or let it ring (felt).
 
Tony L said:
With anything to do with physics it is a huge mistake to assume the behavior of a material when tapped or flicked is how it behaves at audio frequencies.
Click to expand...

True. I think a lot of mistakes are made based on this assumption.

Personally, I have never liked a turntable or speaker that is heavily damped. It just kills all the life and emotion of the music.
 
dave charlton said:
Imho a P9 shows how poor good digital is.
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For me the mastering trumps all else.
The best master, converted to lossy 256 AAC played via the headphone output of your smartphone will completely spank poorer masters played on the best vinyl front end.
That aside, the best vinyl front ends succeed by gently bathing the music in a mix of euphonic 'enhancements'.
Vinyl is a pretty lossy medium when all told.
 
I thought 'euphony' was more to do with valves than t/t's. Anyways I don't buy the 'it's down to the mastering' pov, I just don't like what digital does to music reproduction.
 
If digital does not introduce “euphony” why don’t all DAC’s sound the same given the maturity of DAC chips?
 
dave charlton said:
I thought 'euphony' was more to do with valves than t/t's. Anyways I don't buy the 'it's down to the mastering' pov, I just don't like what digital does to music reproduction.
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Your view would have been commonplace in the 90s. Not so much now. I really don't know, as a classical lover, where I would be without digital media.
 
I notice there is a film about Studio 54 tonight on Sky Arts for the TD-125 spotters out there! May have to record that, though I suspect I’ve seen it before.
 
Robert your observations about rubber mats certainly ring true with me as I have got a Technics 1210 and I do remember years ago getting a DJ slip mat,made out of some sort of fiber material and taking the Technics mat off There was definitely a change in sound.Slightly warmer I would say.I have a LP12 as well and I think the felt mat is a part of the LP12 sound.

Robert said:
I don't disagree, but rubber mats, especially the soft ones like those popular in the 70s do damp the vinyl.
When you tap a vinyl record you hear the resonant frequency of the vinyl, and a cartridge energised in that area of the spectrum will excite the vinyl.
The choice you have is to damp it, try to ground it (the 'impedance matched' platter) or let it ring (felt).
Click to expand...
 
[QUOTE Halvis said; There were less gaps in the music also
]
tedmanzie said:
I can't work out how a belt drive can have 'less gaps in the music' than a direct drive? :)
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Having a bit of trouble with this; not just the 'less' instead of 'fewer' (well spotted Tedmanzie) but with gaps in the music. Is this some new digital presentational trickery? :)

I've had three types of deck (suspended, non suspended and mass) covering 401, 2 x Goldrings, LP12, Roksan, Orbe, 2 x Thorens and currently Dais. I've never experienced a DD. However, my friend has recently acquired a top Technics (SP10R?) with 12" Glanz arm and Shilabe cart.and is over the Moon

I've never thought too much about the fundamental presentation of a deck, let alone speed accuracy, as each deck I've had over 50+ years has been accompanied by a different arm and cart.and has played music to satisfy, both classical and other. Am tempted by the SP10R but will probably soldier on with my Dais, as I can't move it anyway.

I take heed of comments in this thread about the 'sterility' of DDs (generally across price points?) but find the the platter mass with belt and low torque motor has the edge on my previous Orbe in just about every aspect (not least in the ability to house 12" arms). Mind you, the Orbe (+SMEV) was better than the Xerxes (+Artemiz) which preceded it, which was better again the the Valhalla etc. LP12 before (+ Tiktok). Maybe I'm tonally naive and simply followed the 'a change is as good as a rest' philosophy, but no regrets at any stage.
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N.B. I hate it when the text somehow doesn't detach from the quotes!
 
I'm still happy with my SL1200G, the best performance improvement so far was fitting the KAB damper, but it also responded well to the Funk Achromat and an AT Magnesium headshell.
 
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