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What is a Linn LP12 and when does it stop being an LP12.

Hi,

I posted this on the thread about the upgrade to a system, it was pointed out that the content of this post below was not really relevant to that thread, which I accepted, so I said I would start a new thread so I lifted the full text of what I said and have started this thread.

Here is the thread I posted it on.........

https://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/lp12-new-phono-stage-or-karousel.248015/

So here is what I posted, it is an opinion/view/thoughts, call it what you will.

Am sure there are many who will have their own thoughts and views on this subject.

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An LP12 is what Linn make and distribute to dealers to sell.

If someone modifies, with any third party or own modifications, but excluding Linn's own modifications, to the basic LP12 from Linn it is no longer a Linn LP12, excluding the arm and cartridge in those modifications of course, as they can be what the buyer wants on the basic LP12, without altering the structure of the basic LP12.

When the structure of a basic LP12 is modified what it becomes is anyone's guess, but it is not a basic LP12, would you call a painting from a well known artist, for example Rembrandt, that is then partially or fully repainted by someone else still a painting by Rembrandt?

This does not mean that any modification does not change or enhance the basic LP12, however it is not an LP12, whatever it becomes is unclear.

Maybe there should be a term used to identify decks that started life as an LP12 that has then had the structure modified and therefore becomes something other than a basic Linn LP12, I am sure there are many possible terms :D

Cheers

John
 
Custom is the word used in the automotive world to describe a car, van or bike that has been modified, so perhaps a Custom LP12 or a LP12 Custom.
 
Gonna be lots of opinions for sure :)

For me, it's a gradual moving away as more and more non-Linn parts are fitted. My Valhalla deck has an VM95 stylus but I still consider it an LP12.

Not saying 3rd party is bad, just likely to take the deck further away from how Linn develop the LP12 using tunedem.

So, I don't think there is a clear transition point - just a fuzzy grey area and on the far side is something I wouldn't consider an LP12.
 
I cannot imagine that LP12 and Sondek are not Linn trademarks. If they are, any turntable that contains non-Linn parts that replace a Linn part, but is called or advertised as either of those names, is trademark infringement.

Not that Linn would pursue it unless it happened on a commercial scale.

@Darren L suggestions seems the very obvious answer, although what a trademark lawyer might make of it, I wouldn't like to guess.

As for TTs that are very largely or even totally non-Linn components that get called LP12s..................... Turntable aff LP12/aff Linn?
 
An LP12 that contains “some” third party components is simply a modified LP in my opinion... but once more than 50% of it is third party, I kind of struggle with calling it a Linn LP12. All of that being said, so long as the next owner knows exactly what they’re buying, I don’t think it really matters.
 
I have been very conscious that an LP12, with parts replaced by third party manufacturers is indeed NOT an Lp12, but it also difficult to determine when an LP12 looses its identity as an LP12. Many LP 12’s out there with non-Linn cartridges, Dynavector etc., for example, and non-Linn arms, eg. Aros. Are they no longer LP12’s?
Believed that mine is a completely Linn, Linn Sondek, except that its Linn Ittock arm was re-wired by Audio Origami, so does that mean I don’t actually have a Linn Sondek, but one of those ‘Frankenstein’ variants?
 
I have been very conscious that an LP12, with parts replaced by third party manufacturers is indeed NOT an Lp12, but it also difficult to determine when an LP12 looses its identity as an LP12. Many LP 12’s out there with non-Linn cartridges, Dynavector etc., for example, and non-Linn arms, eg. Aros. Are they no longer LP12’s?
Believed that mine is a completely Linn, Linn Sondek, except that its Linn Ittock arm was re-wired by Audio Origami, so does that mean I don’t actually have a Linn Sondek, but one of those ‘Frankenstein’ variants?
No it doesn’t, don’t forget that in the early days, Linn didn’t make a tonearm, in those days Grace and SME arms were popular choices. I think it was about six years before Linn released a tonearm. In fact they sold a “chassis only” LP12, essentially the top plate and all the mechanics minus the plinth and tonearm... not sure how many of those sold or what they were mounted in, but they are/were out there and they were LP12s
 
It is easy to spoil the ship for a happeth of tar.

Some upgrades really do almost completely circumvent the decks fundamental abilities.

So I can understand why some people insist on everything completely stock.

My own deck is 30% non Linn and all the better for it!
 
It's a belief system. The original LP12s came with e.g. Grace arms and Supex cartridges, and Ivor was happy to sell them as LP12s.

As more Linn bits were developed, the LP12 became part of the Majik/Akurate/Klimax ranges. In a sense, they are the only 'official' LP12s, but the variation of third party options is boggling.

FWIW, most of the changes that came from Linn have made a genuine improvement, for generally good reasons, at least IMHO. Many of the third party upgrades have simply jumped on the bandwagon to make a buck or two (not difficult to undercut the official upgrades).

I've stuck with the 'proper' Linn platform, but use an ARO/Dynavector, and it gives me pleasure and value for money. I'm sure all those other 'upgrades' would make a difference, but I reserve judgement on whether they are 'better' and to be honest life is too short. I trust the developers (David Williamson in particular) to not develop upgrades for the sake of it. I know that opens me up to be shot down as a blind follower of fashion but there we are
 
You buy a Moto Guzzi, put on after-market pipes, tuning kit, seat, levers, mirrors, headlamp, rack and panniers, but it's still a Moto Guzzi. It only becomes otherwise if you swap out the motor. That's the heart and soul.
So what's the heart and soul of a Sondek? I'd say the motor and bearing (and the hinges).
 
It only becomes otherwise if you swap out the motor.
The registration document is associated with the frame. You could bolt a BSA Bantam or Honda CG engine in there, still it would officially be a Moto Guzzi according to DVLA.
 
My lp12 was all linn before I had to sell it :(
Except for 2 tigar paw “additions”
Tranquility and skale
Ekos s/e. Krystal
Keel
Urika
Radikal

It was Definitely an lp12 because I could remove the “additions “ withi a couple of minutes :D
 
The only addition to my 1980 LP12 (other than Linn updates) is a Hercules PS. I would still call this a Linn LP12 as the PS is only a Valhalla with 45rpm. No?
 
I recall advertising from Linn about the single point bearing, so in my mind, an LP12 is still an LP12 with a Linn bearing.
 


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