Schoenberg & R. Strauss

[Fuller]

Apologies I'm no expert on classical music but I have a CD with both Schoenberg Verklarte Nacht and Strauss Metamorphosen on the disc, by the English String Orchestra on Nimbus and I've had it for over 25 years.
I enjoy these two pieces very much and am asking for further recommendations by these two composers please? Or other similar type of works of this ilk by other composers please?
I do prefer orchestral rather then vocal pieces overall but do also love Four Last Songs by Strauss.
Thanks in anticipation.

 

[mandryka]

I would try Schoenberg’s first quartet, and then go to the other extreme of his work, take a deep breath, and see whether you like his Phantasy for violin and piano op 47.

As far as Strauss is concerned, I would definitely listen to the prelude, mondscheinmusic and spiegelbild from the opera Capriccio, the start and the end of the opera. Then, go to the other extreme, take a deep breath, and see whether you like the short one act opera Elektra.

 

[marshanp]

Verklarte Nacht and Metamorphosen are two very great works, though really quite different from one another.

“Sommernacht” by the Swiss composer Othmar Schoeck is not unlike Verklarte Nacht; I think you would enjoy it.

I can’t think of anything else which is like Metamorphosen... but there is lots of wonderful music for string orchestra. You might like to try Tchaikovsky’s Souvenir de Florence - originally for string sextet, and then transcribed for string orchestra. Verklarte Nacht followed the same path of development.

England has produced more great music for string orchestra than any other country. The Fantasia on a Theme of Thomas Tallis by Vaughan Williams is a great starting point. Then there is the Introduction and Allegro by Elgar, the Fantasia on a Theme of Corelli by Tippett, the Variations on a Theme of Frank Bridge by Britten... and (much less well known), the wonderful Elegy by Harold Truscott.

 

[ciderglider]

Try Schoenberg's Pelleas und Melissande. His Gurrelieder may appeal, but it does go on...Alban Berg's Seven Early Songs is also worth investigating if you enjoyed the Strauss Four Last Songs

 

[montesquieu]

If you like the 4LS then Mahler is the place to go next, specifically the Lieder eines Fahrenden Gesellen, the five Ruckert Lieder (these are delicious), Kintertotenlieder, and the Lied von der Erde - all orchestral-vocal pieces of different scale. Or the Wagner Wesendonk Lieder.

Having said that, you might choose to go in another direction, into piano-accompanied Lieder, if you haven't explored that. Voice and piano versions of the Lieder eines Fahrenden Gesellen and Ruckert Lieder might be a good place to start.

One of my favourite piano versions of the Mahler (this is a fantastic CD altogether), Konrad Jarnot and Helmut Deutsch:

Working backwards from there to the song cycles of Schumann and Schubert. Beware, it's addictive, I'm a total Lieder junkie.

One of the songs from one of my favourite versions of the Mahler Ruckert Lieder, orchestral version:

 

[alanbeeb]

Strauss's Metamorphosen is not typical of his other works, most of which were composed 30-50 years before he composed Metamorphosen, at the end of WWII as a lament for the ruin of German culture. His earlier orchestral works are much bigger and bombastic by comparison and although there are several masterpieces, none are in the same vein. But two pieces spring to mind - Death & Transfiguration (Tod und Verklarung) from 1890s, and also one of his very last pieces the Duet Concertino from 1947.

Recommended recording - Herbie von K and Berlin Phil for Tod und Verklarung, an amazing performance that also includes their definitive recording of Metamorphosen which you may find enriches your experience of that piece compared to the Boughton Nimbus recording.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00000E2OB/?tag=pinkfishmedia-21

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000025XXZ/?tag=pinkfishmedia-21 - the horn concertos & Serenade are good fun too.

Schoenberg is even harder to recommend a follow up to Verklarte Nacht due to his change in style.... but maybe the 2 Chamber Symphonies might be worth a try - there used to be a good recording from the Orpheus Chamber orchestra but looks like no longer available on Amazon. But here it is at Presto Classical - available as a download too.
https://www.prestomusic.com/classic...schoenberg-verklarte-nacht-chamber-symphonies

 

[Todd A]

For Strauss, I agree that Tod und Verklarung is the best next piece to explore. Karajan or Monteux conducting.

For Schoenberg I would agree with Pelleas et Melisande. Mehta conducting. His disc with three different settings of the work - Schoenberg, Faure, Sibelius - is one of his very best efforts.

 

[alanbeeb]

As a companion to Strauss's Metamorphosen, Ralph Vaughan Williams 5th Symphony might be worth hearing..... composed just a year before (and after it became apparent that the Allies were heading for vctory), its another older man's view of the war, but very much looking ahead to the broad sunlit uplands of peace.
Lots of good recording by the likes of Haitink, Previn and others - but Vernon Handley & Royal Liverpool do it justice, and also include the ravishing Flos Campi suite.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00000DO16/?tag=pinkfishmedia-21

 

[Fuller]

Many thanks for your kind replies. I will look forward to exploring some of the suggestions, although I have been listening to the great English composers for many years. Indeed alanbeebs RVW suggestion above was actually one of the first CD's I purchased why back in 1987. Gerald Finzi is another whose work I admire.
I also very much enjoy Tippett's Concerto for Double String Orchestra, on Virgin Classics with the Scottish Chamber Orchestra, who are conducted by ..... Sir Michael Tippett!

 

[alanbeeb]

Another suggestion - Franz Schmidt's 4th Symphony from 1932. Despite their musical differences after Schoenberg's move to atonalism after Verklaerte Nacht etc, they remained good friends, and he was an admirer of Strauss. The ultra-late-romanticism of Schmidt's music make it a good match for Verklaerte Nacht and Metamorphosen - though its not the equal of either and it goes on a bit too long IMO! But its in the same sort of sound-world as those works so may be worth a try.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000002RVP/?tag=pinkfishmedia-21

 

[gingermrkettle]

Might be worth looking at the Lyric Symphony or Die Seejungfrau by Zemlinsky, or on another tack Schoenberg's first string quartet.

 

[Elephantears]

If you like Verklarte Nacht and Strauss this means you have a taste for Decadence. As such I would push on to Schoenberg's Second String Quartet and see if you can stomach the third and forth movements; these are settings of Stefan George poems for soprano and for me they are where the Decadent Movement found its musical apotheosis - they're also Schoenberg's most obviously post-Wagnerian compositions.

You might find the version of the Second String Quartet for string orchestra is closest in spirit to the pieces you've already heard.

Finally, since I'm pushing the Decadent connection, please listen to Pierrot Lunaire. It's nothing like the music you've mentioned, but uniquely playful, dark, and surreal. It was a complete revelation to me when I was discovering modernist classical music.

 

[Tryant]

Decadence has a certain resonance these days, n'est-ce pas? Saw Pierrot Lunaire performed for the first time (for me) a couple of years ago. Never really liked the piece and sadly the performance by the wonderful Manchester Collective did nothing to change my opinion of the work.
https://manchestercollective.co.uk/pierrot

 

[Elephantears]

There is an excellent DVD following the Pierrot production put on by Mitzuko Uchida's ensemble, with very interesting focus on the individual musicians, all of whom are excellent. Uchida is very perceptive and all the chat is interesting.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B008XRAGHO/?tag=pinkfishmedia-21

I have so many version of Pierrot I'm not sure where to start. For me it began with the Jane Manning/Rattle version in the 80s and I've seen Jane Manning perform it a couple of times. She has a good balance between theatricality, irony, grotesque relish, gothic threat, hysteria, and musicality: not many achieve that. Others do have greater lyrical qualities though. Part of the problem is that the sprechstimme mode demands both actress and singer, or an awkward zone in between. A soprano will often lack the theatrical capability and an actress will often lack the vocal quality and reach.

 

[Todd A]

Another suggestion - Franz Schmidt's 4th Symphony from 1932.

Agree it is worth a try. Paavo Jarvi's recent set offers a pretty good take on all the symphonies, in up to date playing and sound:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B08BQRJHNC/?tag=pinkfishmedia-21

 

[alanbeeb]

Agree it is worth a try. Paavo Jarvi's recent set offers a pretty good take on all the symphonies, in up to date playing and sound:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B08BQRJHNC/?tag=pinkfishmedia-21

Funnily enough, I bought that set last week (£15 for the CD quality download from prestomusic.com) after reminding myself about Schmidt's 4th in that post. Its an excellent set, first time for me hearing Symphonies 1,2 & 3.

While the 4th has had maybe 4 recordings in the stereo era, the others have been almost totally ignored, which is a shame because actually 1,2 & 3 re all very nice pieces of music and I enjoyed them greatly. They are certainly not masterpieces but well worth a hearing. They are all also much sunnier and positive than the very dark and lugubrious 4th symphony (composed as Schmidt recovered from a mental breakdown following the death of his daughter). Musically, if you try to imagine what Schumann might have composed had he followed Brahms & Bruckner then that might give you an idea, maybe !

However, I then followed up by turning to another almost forgotten composer from the same era - Wilhelm Stenhammar and his 2nd symphony, performed by Paavo's esteemed father Neeme Jarvi with the Gothenborg Symphony in this excellent set
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B004W5MNR2/?tag=pinkfishmedia-21

There's a lot more going on in Stenhammar's symphony than in Schmidts to be fair.... highly recommended.

 

[Tantris]

For Strauss, I would specifically mention the Symphonia Domestica as worth tracking down. More generally, I think the ways in which late romantic music of the 19th century spilled over into the 20th, and then fragmented, are endlessly fascinating and can be explored in many ways. To build on montesquieu’s lieder recommendations, I would mention Mendelssohn (Midsummer Night’s Dream), Brahms (late piano music, especially Three Intermezzi, or the second string quartet op.51), and Wagner (Tristan und Isolde, Wesendonck Lieder), and then Scriabin & Debussy, Mahler (4th Symphony), early Webern & Berg, Reger and Zemlinsky. One of the most interesting seams to mine is also the music condemned as degenerate by the Nazis - entartete musik – including such composers as Viktor Ullmann, Erwin Schulhoff, Ernst Krenek, Franz Schreker, et alia. The shift from the Romantic focus on individual sensibility and identity, to decadence and national identity, and to resistance and exile expressed through folk music archetypes, is all evident within this music. Bartok, Janacek and Shostakovich all naturally follow; it’s a great ride.

 

[mandryka]

Wagner (Tristan und Isolde,

Yes well, with a name like Tantris you would say that. You’ve been rumbled.

 

[lordsummit]

I’m just listening to this, I still have some friends in the BBC Phil. They told me it was worth listening to. I think it would fit the bill quite nicely. Decadent, luscious, melancholic. It has all the right stuff:

Ben-Haim: Music Of Israel [Claudia Barainsky; John Bradbury; BBC Philharmonic; Omer Meir Wellber] [Chandos Records: CHAN 20169] https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B08JRGP57K/?tag=pinkfishmedia-21

 

[marshanp]

Ah, Omer Meir Wellber - he stepped in to conduct the CBSO on March 10th in the last concert I attended - a fine performance of Bruckner 6.

He has a new recording of Ben-Haim's 1st symphony with the BBC PO on Chandos - a splendid work.