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The environmental impact of electric cars

It's consumer driven primarily. Most people feel the need to over specify because the culture change around usage isn't familiar to them.

Providing you have a drive, or charging infrastructure, most electric car drivers start the day with a full tank of fuel, rarely needing to think about visiting a charger. Most cars sit idle all day.

There's always use cases that do need range or rapid fuelling though. For some battery vehicles that's already here.
Yeah but....you’re lugging around that extra weight and using more power to do that. Education is what’s needed...consumers surely can get the concept. It’s much less complex than understanding lockdown rules. Then there’s the revenue opportunity for Kwikfit et all to rent you batteries and fit them.
 
Talking to a friend who is on his second electric car (a new Leaf, which replaced his Gen.1 Leaf) he makes the point that the key to it will be the charging infrastructure. Motoring organisations advise you take a break every 2 hours, and I'd say most people would like a break somewhere between 2 and 3 hours into a journey. So if you can stop every 3 hours for a coffee, loo break and a leg stretch, and know that in that time you can a) find a vacant, working charger, and b) juice up enough for the next 3 hours, then you're pretty much sorted for range anxiety issues. That presupposes a reliable 200 mile battery range (including heating/aircon, lights and ICE), and recharging to 80-90% within about 20 minutes. We're pretty much at that capability, except for the availability aspect.
 
Lithium is one of the most abundant elements on Earth. The problem with lithium batteries is the anode chemicals: currently Cobalt is the most difficult (and politically contentious) to source.

And yes, the comparison is bogus because it assumes that petrol is created at zero energy cost by magical refining fairies who bear it on their gossamer wings to your local BP. Being (very) generous there's another 50-100g of CO2 emissions per litre between crude and unleaded, plus a transportation emissions cost (very low, about 1-2 grammes per litre). While electricity generation is not loss-free either, the figures given there seem to be for CO2 emissions per kWh usable at the domestic premises.

The biggest issue with EVs is that you have to front-load their emissions by stacking them full of the biggest battery you think you'll ever need. Most people grossly over-provision their EV range. It would be better for the environment to buy a smaller-range electric car and rent an ICE vehicle for the couple of occasions where you need to drive further.
It's even worse for shale oil extraction. I've heard figures of 5 tonnes of fuel being burnt on site to generate 1 tonne (net)of finished fuel that actually leaves the premises.
 
Yeah but....you’re lugging around that extra weight and using more power to do that. Education is what’s needed...consumers surely can get the concept. It’s much less complex than understanding lockdown rules. Then there’s the revenue opportunity for Kwikfit et all to rent you batteries and fit them.
A valid point, but there are some advantages to having excess capacity in terms of total battery life, partial charging and discharging can dramatically increase cycle life of cells. For every 5% reduction in charge level, relative to the total battery capacity, you double cycle life. Tesla, for example, only charge to 95% of cell capacity when you charge to '100%'.

Whether that offsets the extra cost and materials I'm not sure.

Getting that capacity on the grid is also an advantage to our overall energy use and ability to go green.
 
As I am about to get a Tesla I have done lots of research on this. I concur with much of what Andrew says, these mass charging needs are usually overstated as most folks will start the day with 250/350 miles range every day, not many folks use that up every day anyway. Overnight charging is typically done at 7kw so well within normal wiring requirements, three phase 415v is unnecessary for most folks as you don’t need 22kw charging at home but I could see a need if you had 3+ cars needing full charges every night.

Data from the USA is saying that battery packs are lasting well into 150k to 200k miles which is quite an acceptable life for a car IMO. New tech that is b ring worked on will assist lifetime, chart ability and lifetime as well as reducing undesirable elements. Fuel cells are not even close to offering the distribution network yet and we really do not yet have a good way of isolating the most abundant element in the universe.
 
Yeah but....you’re lugging around that extra weight and using more power to do that.

A valid point, but there are some advantages to having excess capacity in terms of total battery life, partial charging and discharging can dramatically increase cycle life of cells.

Whether that offsets the extra cost and materials in not sure.
Also, I think the weight aspect is a valid point so long as there's a carbon emissions element to the fuel used to move that weight. I run an Audi A2, which I chose deliberately because it's a Golf-sized car in terms of capacity, but weighs 70% of what the Golf weighs, and is still, c15 years on, one of the lightest cars on the road. I object to burning fuel to move a 1.5-2 tonne car to shift 80Kg of little old me.

But if burning that fuel doesn't create any carbon emissions, I'm not sure I have an ethical problem with that, any more. So weight, in that sense, is not the issue it once was.

Personally, I think my next car will be a plug-in hybrid. I estimate that 80% of my usage will be electric only, and the remainder will be a mix, but having the engine means I'm not dependent on charging infrastructure, so I can make the switch soon, rather than waiting for the charging points to catch up.
 
As I am about to get a Tesla I have done lots of research on this. I concur with much of what Andrew says, these mass charging needs are usually overstated as most folks will start the day with 250/350 miles range every day, not many folks use that up every day anyway. Overnight charging is typically done at 7kw so well within normal wiring requirements, three phase 415v is unnecessary for most folks as you don’t need 22kw charging at home but I could see a need if you had 3+ cars needing full charges every night.

Data from the USA is saying that battery packs are lasting well into 150k to 200k miles which is quite an acceptable life for a car IMO. New tech that is b ring worked on will assist lifetime, chart ability and lifetime as well as reducing undesirable elements. Fuel cells are not even close to offering the distribution network yet and we really do not yet have a good way of isolating the most abundant element in the universe.
There's a Google sheets doc online with lots of real world Tesla battery data. Some of the figures are astonishing, less than 10% capacity loss at figures getting towards 200k.

Tesla do battery management unusually well.
 
It seems to me that the most significant way of saving energy from cars is to use the bloody things less. Don't take your kids to school by car, get them to walk or use the school bus. When they're older they can bicycle there. Try to cut down on helicopter parenting.

Go to the local shops on foot, visit the local butcher / baker / candle stick maker. Try to live in at least the same town or city as your job, not in a dacha out in the sticks. Work from home.

Use the bus, even though the bus drivers are tw*ts if you haven't got exactly the right change.

Another thing is to keep your car going for as long as you can. According to the figures in the article, it takes about 1/4 of the lifetime petrol pollution to make the car in the first place.

It's good to see Volvo declaring these figures, although it's probably going to be like playing bridge i.e. declare low at the start.
 
Also, I think the weight aspect is a valid point so long as there's a carbon emissions element to the fuel used to move that weight. I run an Audi A2, which I chose deliberately because it's a Golf-sized car in terms of capacity, but weighs 70% of what the Golf weighs, and is still, c15 years on, one of the lightest cars on the road. I object to burning fuel to move a 1.5-2 tonne car to shift 80Kg of little old me.

But if burning that fuel doesn't create any carbon emissions, I'm not sure I have an ethical problem with that, any more. So weight, in that sense, is not the issue it once was.

Personally, I think my next car will be a plug-in hybrid. I estimate that 80% of my usage will be electric only, and the remainder will be a mix, but having the engine means I'm not dependent on charging infrastructure, so I can make the switch soon, rather than waiting for the charging points to catch up.
I'll definitely go full electric as I do (did) a daily commute that's easily within any electric vehicle range. Ironically despite being petrol, my car is pretty much zero emissions at the tailpipe currently as the spiders are getting more use out of it than me :)

Working from home is great!

I'm similar to you, I run a small sporty hatchback that weighs just over 1000kg, very light by modern standards. I want an electric equivalent, small sporty and fun.

But at present there's no point changing.
 
Yeah but....you’re lugging around that extra weight and using more power to do that. Education is what’s needed...consumers surely can get the concept. It’s much less complex than understanding lockdown rules. Then there’s the revenue opportunity for Kwikfit et all to rent you batteries and fit them.
At the moment the 5 minute exchange battery is a pipe dream. They are too big and heavy, the energy density is too low. That's always been the winner for combustion, be it coal, oil or gas. 40kg of oil takes a car 300-400 miles. No battery can rival that, for reasons of the laws of physics.
 
At the moment the 5 minute exchange battery is a pipe dream. They are too big and heavy, the energy density is too low. That's always been the winner for combustion, be it coal, oil or gas. 40kg of oil takes a car 300-400 miles. No battery can rival that, for reasons of the laws of physics.
I wonder about a blend of battery and supercapacitor. So core reserves in a battery, topped up by a supercapacitor for a quick extra 50 miles or so from a 2-minute zap.
 
I run an Audi A2

But doesn't the A2 owe much of its low weight to an aluminium construction? Doesn't aluminium take a lot more energy to produce than steel? Also don't you need to use a bit more aluminium to get the same strength? Was all that taken into account?

I am a broken record but it shouldn't be the car companies doing the environmental impact assessments, it should be an independent body of engineers funded by us.
 
It seems to me that the most significant way of saving energy from cars is to use the bloody things less. Don't take your kids to school by car, get them to walk or use the school bus. When they're older they can bicycle there. Try to cut down on helicopter parenting.

Go to the local shops on foot, visit the local butcher / baker / candle stick maker. Try to live in at least the same town or city as your job, not in a dacha out in the sticks. Work from home.

Use the bus, even though the bus drivers are tw*ts if you haven't got exactly the right change.

Another thing is to keep your car going for as long as you can. According to the figures in the article, it takes about 1/4 of the lifetime petrol pollution to make the car in the first place.

It's good to see Volvo declaring these figures, although it's probably going to be like playing bridge i.e. declare low at the start.
I'd heard half to f a third of the emissions are in making it. Obviously this depends on the use. A 300k mile taxi will be less, my mum's little hatch that rusted to death with less than 40k miles from new would be more.
 
But doesn't the A2 owe much of its low weight to an aluminium construction? Doesn't aluminium take a lot more energy to produce than steel? Also don't you need to use a bit more aluminium to get the same strength? Was all that taken into account?

I am a broken record but it shouldn't be the car companies doing the environmental impact assessments, it should be an independent body of engineers funded by us.
Yes, the A2 is aluminium. And at 15 years old, it still looks pretty much like new. No corrosion, and I expect it could well keep on for another 10-15 years. So the energy embedded in the manufacture is still lower over the lifecycle of the car. Plus, aluminium is a more abundant element than iron.
 
With vehicle to grid it requires an additional 20MW (sic) according to the National Grid, even if every car in the UK is electric. That's one decent off shore wind farm.

Without V2G it's gigawatts, but we have plenty of time to do this right. The grid capacity is another one of those issues that's misunderstood. We frequently disable generating capacity, because we can't store the excess, and prices go negative.

I had to look up V2G and it seems it would be a big help but we're still talking huge building of infrastructure and use of resources. Millions of 10-100KW (whatever) inverters for a start... Then there's the infrastructure of providing maybe 100KW capable chargers with inverters for most parking bays.
 
I wonder about a blend of battery and supercapacitor. So core reserves in a battery, topped up by a supercapacitor for a quick extra 50 miles or so from a 2-minute zap.
Works for amplifiers, for sure. But in a car it's not momentary power that's limiting, it's capacity. Even a grotty old school lead acid cell can deliver 100A, it just can't do it for long. Look at fork lifts, they will lift anything and accelerate like hell, but even with a couple of tonnes of batteries on board they run out halfway through a shift.
 
I had to look up V2G and it seems it would be a big help but we're still talking huge building of infrastructure and use of resources. Millions of 10-100KW (whatever) inverters for a start... Then there's the infrastructure of providing maybe 100KW capable chargers with inverters for most parking bays.
I'd argue that compared to the cost of a new nuclear power station (and I'm not in any way anti nuclear in principle), I think it's a better solution and in all likelihood cheaper. The technology exists and could be mandated by govt on new build and assisted on older buildings. Hinckley Point C is going to produce the most expensive energy ever, if it ever gets completed, and the costs will keep rising and will not drop over it's lifetime. The EOL costs are ignored too.

Renewables are the cheapest form of energy we have and in a rare bit of positivity the UK is a leader in offshore wind production. One advantage to living on this frequently wet and windy isle!
 
At the moment the 5 minute exchange battery is a pipe dream. They are too big and heavy, the energy density is too low. That's always been the winner for combustion, be it coal, oil or gas. 40kg of oil takes a car 300-400 miles. No battery can rival that, for reasons of the laws of physics.
My point about the battery exchange was for the fairly rare occasion people need to upgrade the car from local use to long distance holiday use and back again.

A lot of long distance car driving for work is toast now...I used to drive 30k+ for work. This will surely quite rare from now on.
 
My point about the battery exchange was for the fairly rare occasion people need to upgrade the car from local use to long distance holiday use and back again.

A lot of long distance car driving for work is toast now...I used to drive 30k+ for work. This will surely quite rare from now on.

My hope is that the upside of this pandemic is government realise new ways to reduce emissions. I'm driving far less, and have cycled more miles than I've driven since March. but the money I'm saving will all find it's way back into the economy and probably be spent on items with longer life cycles and better recycling prospects than the petrol I burn.

I've already spent some on an ebike conversion.

I don't see any signs of that from our leaders though, but maybe some impact will come from us, negotiating with employers to keep some of the benefits of working from home, for those of us that can, or companies realising not all business requires the travel that was thought to be necessary and that money can be saved as a result.
 


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