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RBG RIP

montesquieu said:
In my view the biggest issue facing the US right now isn’t Trump, or BLM, or neo-Nazis, or even Covid, but a widespread breakdown in respect for fundamentals like the rule of law and respect for democracy. Wherever you place the blame for that, and whether you argue all the problems of the world result from a conspiracy between big money and politicians in rigging the game against ordinary people, or of a grievance industry designed and run by Marxists to undermine the Constitution and bring down the state (what colour is your tinfoil hat?) the US definitely has a fundamental problem where each side doesn't trust the other that they will respect the electoral process or the operation of the justice system - indeed we are now in a situation where neither side might accept the coming election result if it doesn't go their preferred way. Democracy depends on the losers accepting that they they lost, on the proviso that they will get another chance to make the case in the next electoral cycle. In a society where there are more guns than people, any move away from that basic principle could quickly get out of hand.
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There is much to agree with in your post, but you post carries an implication that both sides are as bad as each other and that is patently not the case (unless you can point me to where the democrats have attempted to overthrow democratic process -e.g. Gore vs Bush, or attempted to deprive citizens of their right to vote). The republican party has spent the past 30 years transforming into a party where power is all, compromise be damned, and they will do the bidding of the highest bidder, regardless of the damage it does to the country. Trump is a symptom, and, we can only hope, the end game, and not a cause.
 
chainrule said:
https://www.collins.senate.gov/newsroom/senator-collins’-statement-supreme-court

Collins, in the last sentence, says the winner of the election should choose the supreme court nominee. Has Murkowski said the same thing, or just that the niminee shouldn’t be selected until after the election, leaving the door open for Trump to nominate someone before leaving office. Or, am I missing something?
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Neither said they would not vote for Trump's nominee after the election.

In fact, there will be enormous pressure on them to confirm a young, conservative judge in the lame duck session... especially if Trump loses and the Senate flips.

Their stance can also be a tactical move - allowing Collins and a couple of others to claim "independence" to benefit their re-election chances, while still voting in the nominee before election on a 50/50 split with VP casting a decisive vote.

GOP/Trump desperately need another loyal vote on the SC, as their plan for the election is to claim a win on election night and petition SC to stop the count of mailed ballots.

I guess there is a possibility of a huge blue wave that will demoralize the GOP and make the lame-duck vote difficult...but I really doubt it.
 
sean99 said:
There is much to agree with in your post, but you post carries an implication that both sides are as bad as each other and that is patently not the case (unless you can point me to where the democrats have attempted to overthrow democratic process -e.g. Gore vs Bush, or attempted to deprive citizens of their right to vote). The republican party has spent the past 30 years transforming into a party where power is all, compromise be damned, and they will do the bidding of the highest bidder, regardless of the damage it does to the country. Trump is a symptom, and, we can only hope, the end game, and not a cause.
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I don't have a dog in the fight, I'm not American and I'm not sure I could actively vote for either party.

Both the Democrats and the Republicans have extremely disreputable elements in their base, which they pander to for electoral reasons, but in both cases such actions call their morality into question. In that sense they are equivalent.

I agree that the Republicans have been especially ruthless in voter suppression (possibly illegally in some cases) but the way the Democrats have encouraged the current wave of lawlessness - knelt down to it, indeed - suggests they are not above some cynical manouvering themselves, and there is also some credible evidence of Democrat postal ballot stuffing. Both sides of course have been active for decades now in redistricting/gerrymandering to create 'safe' seats in Congress and at state level.

A pox on both as far as I'm concerned - I really don't think there's that much between them.
 
montesquieu said:
I really don't think there's that much between them.
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That's absurd, it's a chasm by any reasonable measure. You don't have to be a slavish admirer of the Democrats to see that. You either haven't been paying much attention, or don't feel that uncomfortable with Trump. One of the two. Just be honest about it.

It's not Trump who is to blame, he's just being what he is, a disgusting apology for a human being. People like him need enablers and a population prepared to go along with them and that, until now, is what he has had. Time to stand up and say "enough" and deal with the Democrats later. Not ideal, but you have to start somewhere.
 
montesquieu said:
I don't have a dog in the fight, I'm not American and I'm not sure I could actively vote for either party.

Both the Democrats and the Republicans have extremely disreputable elements in their base, which they pander to for electoral reasons, but in both cases such actions call their morality into question. In that sense they are equivalent.

I agree that the Republicans have been especially ruthless in voter suppression (possibly illegally in some cases) but the way the Democrats have encouraged the current wave of lawlessness - knelt down to it, indeed - suggests they are not above some cynical manouvering themselves, and there is also some credible evidence of Democrat postal ballot stuffing. Both sides of course have been active for decades now in redistricting/gerrymandering to create 'safe' seats in Congress and at state level.

A pox on both as far as I'm concerned - I really don't think there's that much between them.
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Where's the credible evidence of Democrat postal ballot stuffing? Please provide sources.
 
I'm no expert and neither are you, neither of us 'know' we can only parrot what we've read and there's a different perspective depending on which echo-chamber you participate in (I happen to read quite widely to try and see all sides of the debate).

It should be noted that not all Democracts seem to think this is a non-issue. To he honest we could use similar legislation here:

https://justthenews.com/politics-po...-says-voter-fraud-serious-threat-seeks-outlaw
 
justthenews.com is no better than Fox News. This "both sides are as bad as each other" shtick is classic right wing deflection.
 
The only case of "vote harvesting" I'm aware of is the one in North Carolina perpetrated by Republicans.
 
This is well worth a listen as it explains / debunks a lot.
The Briefing Room - Will the US election be free and fair?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000mchx

Allegations of potential postal voting fraud and voter suppression have raised questions about the fairness of November's US presidential election, but what evidence is there to suggest these fears will be realised and influence the vote?

David Aaronovitch explores the prevalence of electoral fraud in America, and in a year when the polls suggest a tight race in several states, he asks what will happen if the election result is contested?

Contributors:

Anthony Zurcher, BBC North America reporter

Elaine Kamarck, director of the Center for Effective Public Management, Brookings Institution.

Professor Carol Anderson, Emory University, Atlanta

Professor Jamal Greene, Columbia University, New York
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Listening to it, I would be more concerned about the effective reversal of the Voting Rights Act of 1965 in some states than the (effectively non-existent) risk of postal rigging.
 
https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/false-narrative-vote-mail-fraud

Despite this dramatic increase in mail voting over time, fraud rates remain infinitesimally small. None of the five states that hold their elections primarily by mail has had any voter fraud scandals since making that change. As the New York Times editorial board notes, “states that use vote-by-mail have encountered essentially zero fraud: Oregon, the pioneer in this area, has sent out more than 100 million mail-in ballots since 2000, and has documented only about a dozen cases of proven fraud.” That’s 0.00001 percent of all votes cast.*** An exhaustive investigative journalism analysis of all known voter fraud cases identified only 491 cases of absentee ballot fraud from 2000 to 2012. As election law professor Richard L. Hasen notes, during that period “literally billions of votes were cast.” While mail ballots are more susceptible to fraud than in-person voting, it is still more likely for an American to be struck by lightning than to commit mail voting fraud.
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montesquieu said:
182 convictions according to this - you can filter by fraud type

https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud...&year=&case_type=All&fraud_type=24489&page=13

Like I said I think perceptions vary according to your personal echo-chamber.
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Who do you think affects the outcome of elections more: 182 individuals or something like the Republican Party's efforts at gerrymandering (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REDMAP)?

[edit]

As someone who clearly reads a lot of this, do you have any analysis of the effects rather than just the numbers?
 
kensalriser said:
If you' think there's little to choose between Reps and Dems you're not looking closely enough.
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As Paul Krugman often says in the NYT, one party has clearly lost its mind. It has rolled over and allowed Tony Soprano to become President (although with none of Tony's redeeming features). And many devout Republicans agree with him:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/09/i-used-think-gop-should-be-saved/616189/

As Bill Kristol (I think) put it, he hasn't left the Republican Party, the Republican Party has left him.
 
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