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Next Labour Leader: Keir Starmer

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It seems to me that Starmer’ 10 pledges are a decent basis on which to challenge the government right now when the government policy is in question and the media are getting critical. If Starmer is shy about highlighting his pledges now, when will he?

The Labour brand is soiled which means Starmer is on the metaphorical back foot. He needs to tread carefully and deliberately at the moment. There's enough material being generated by the government's response to the virus to keep him busy challenging the government for a while yet, and Brexit is coming. I suspect/hope he working on what he wants Labour to stand for under his watch in the background. The media may feel uncomfortable because he's a little boring and doesn't generate drama, something I personally welcome.
 
IMHO Starmer will get his chance, but for the moment he just needs to keep making an idiot out of Johnson.
Slowly but surely things will swing his way, and at that point Boris will be binned.
That's when Starmer will need to have a good team and electable policies.
No rush; an election is over 4 years away.
From what I see things are swinging his way. He’s got to sort out the mess that was left behind and the mess that is still there whilst making his party appear credible.That was always in the job description. I believe he’s got the right strategy.
 
The Labour brand is soiled which means Starmer is on the metaphorical back foot. He needs to tread carefully and deliberately at the moment. There's enough material being generated by the government's response to the virus to keep him busy challenging the government for a while yet, and Brexit is coming. I suspect/hope he working on what he wants Labour to stand for under his watch in the background. The media may feel uncomfortable because he's a little boring and doesn't generate drama, something I personally welcome.

Labour lost the election for failing to honour the referendum first and foremost. If Labour don't grasp that and try to blame Corbyn and the left then they're finished before they start in 2024. It was the lack of trust on Brexit that led to a lack of trust in their other policies, that's clear from all of the serious analyses. I do blame Corbyn for triangulating, he should have argued his corner. I also blame McDonnell and others for flirting with a 2nd referendum, but ultimately he was penned in by the party policy. It's also clear that the internal fighting from within the PLP and the HQ staff was a serious problem - and quite deliberate. The Left needs to start opposing Starmer, if he won't lead in opposition by putting forward the points that he led with in the election. Many party members 'lent him their votes' in the interests of unity, and I argued here that it was a mistake, but I think those members still want to give him a chance, in the teeth it seems of what they can see for themselves is taking place.
 
The Left needs to start opposing Starmer, if he won't lead in opposition by putting forward the points that he led with in the election. Many party members 'lent him their votes' in the interests of unity, and I argued here that it was a mistake, but I think those members still want to give him a chance, in the teeth it seems of what they can see for themselves is taking place.

I don't know how Labour agrees policies; ie whether those put forward by Starmer in his leadership bid can be presented as party policy ahead of the party conference. But the phrase 'The Left needs to start opposing Starmer' suggests that, like the aristocrats of the ancien regime who formed the restored Bourbon regime after Napoleon's fall, they have learned nothing and forgotten nothing.
 
I don't know how Labour agrees policies; ie whether those put forward by Starmer in his leadership bid can be presented as party policy ahead of the party conference. But the phrase 'The Left needs to start opposing Starmer' suggests that, like the aristocrats of the ancien regime who formed the restored Bourbon regime after Napoleon's fall, they have learned nothing and forgotten nothing.

au contraire my friend, Corbyn's success in 2017 was the high point for Labour in the past 15 years, despite the rightwing doing all they could to sabotage the election. A few thousand votes from forming a government (albeit with the SNP) - that Starmer can only dream of at this point. If he carries on like this he can still be replaced before the election, there's no point in electing another Labour government only to see the gap between rich and poor increase further.
 
au contraire my friend, Corbyn's success in 2017 was the high point for Labour in the past 15 years, despite the rightwing doing all they could to sabotage the election. A few thousand votes from forming a government (albeit with the SNP) - that Starmer can only dream of at this point. If he carries on like this he can be replaced before the election, there's no point electing another Labour government only to see the gap between rich and poor increase further.

In the past 15 years? Does that include or exclude the 2005 General Election which Labour won (though admittedly under the Hated Blairites?)
 
In the past 15 years? Does that include or exclude the 2005 General Election which Labour won (though admittedly under the Hated Blairites?)

I meant since then but noting that he lost nearly 50 seats in 2005 scraping home with 35% of the vote with the Tory - Lib Dem opposition thankfully divided - 5000 local councillors up the wall, the majority in the scottish parliament etc etc. He must have been doing something right eh...
 
The Labour brand is soiled which means Starmer is on the metaphorical back foot. He needs to tread carefully and deliberately at the moment. There's enough material being generated by the government's response to the virus to keep him busy challenging the government for a while yet, and Brexit is coming. I suspect/hope he working on what he wants Labour to stand for under his watch in the background. The media may feel uncomfortable because he's a little boring and doesn't generate drama, something I personally welcome.
Agree with most of that, but the Labour brand has been soiled, or at least lost, for some time. The ‘red wall’, to take one example, has been in decline for years, and for another, the London centric bias has dominated all main parties since the flood. To fix the blame for Labour’s demise on a single recent cause is far too simplistic.

There will be many who’d argue, but I have little interest in looking back on this issue. I want to know what Labour stands for going forward. By that I don’t mean setting out specific manifesto promises, that would be silly at this stage, but we should have an idea of what broad principles the Labour Party will stand on going forward. Starmer’s 10 pledges should be a good place to start, but the early signs are worrying. Pledge number 7 talks about strengthening workers rights and trade unions, but Starmer’s support for teachers and the teaching unions in the face of attacks from the Tories and the media just recently was supine. Number 3 is a commitment to climate justice, but Labour have not promoted green issues sufficiently to challenge the Tory green promises, and number one, economic justice seems to have been eclipsed by Sunak and forgotten by Starmer.

So what does Labour now stand for now? How is Labour to the left of the Tories? These are two questions that any life long socialist Labour supporter will want answers to sooner, rather than later
 
Labour lost the election for failing to honour the referendum first and foremost. If Labour don't grasp that and try to blame Corbyn and the left then they're finished before they start in 2024. It was the lack of trust on Brexit that led to a lack of trust in their other policies, that's clear from all of the serious analyses. I do blame Corbyn for triangulating, he should have argued his corner. I also blame McDonnell and others for flirting with a 2nd referendum, but ultimately he was penned in by the party policy. It's also clear that the internal fighting from within the PLP and the HQ staff was a serious problem - and quite deliberate. The Left needs to start opposing Starmer, if he won't lead in opposition by putting forward the points that he led with in the election. Many party members 'lent him their votes' in the interests of unity, and I argued here that it was a mistake, but I think those members still want to give him a chance, in the teeth it seems of what they can see for themselves is taking place.

The left, as expressed by Corbyn and McDonnell, had their 15 minutes and blew it. I'm not saying that the ‘left' can’t contribute in a meaningful way in the future - broad church and all that - but I think they need to regroup to work out how they can operate as part of a credible opposition rather than as a glorified protest movement. Left and right etc though are internal party issues. Starmer needs to figure out how to reconnect the party with the working class, a working class that decided Brexit and the General Election, and that is changing (less factory/mines/revolution, more service sector/ethnically diverse/fragmented). He also has to create a believable narrative on the economy. A big task. He has already said Brexit is settled so he’s heard you on that point.
 
These are two questions that any life long socialist Labour supporter will want answers to sooner, rather than later

What will the life long socialist Labour supporter do with those answers at this ridiculously early stage in a Parliament?

Starmer would be a complete fool to publish a manifesto with nearly four years to an election. Labour supporters should be more interested in winning that election rather than giving sops to party activists, who in all likelihood want him to fail.
 
Agree with most of that, but the Labour brand has been soiled, or at least lost, for some time. The ‘red wall’, to take one example, has been in decline for years, and for another, the London centric bias has dominated all main parties since the flood. To fix the blame for Labour’s demise on a single recent cause is far too simplistic.

There will be many who’d argue, but I have little interest in looking back on this issue. I want to know what Labour stands for going forward. By that I don’t mean setting out specific manifesto promises, that would be silly at this stage, but we should have an idea of what broad principles the Labour Party will stand on going forward. Starmer’s 10 pledges should be a good place to start, but the early signs are worrying. Pledge number 7 talks about strengthening workers rights and trade unions, but Starmer’s support for teachers and the teaching unions in the face of attacks from the Tories and the media just recently was supine. Number 3 is a commitment to climate justice, but Labour have not promoted green issues sufficiently to challenge the Tory green promises, and number one, economic justice seems to have been eclipsed by Sunak and forgotten by Starmer.

So what does Labour now stand for now? How is Labour to the left of the Tories? These are two questions that any life long socialist Labour supporter will want answers to sooner, rather than later

Agree, I'm too sure myself but I am willing to wait for Starmer to find his feet and flesh out his 10 pledges (which may be deliberately slightly vague and interpretative).
 
It’s just the same old circular arguments.

He’s been leader for 3 months

He hasn’t gone back on any of his 10 pledges
 
au contraire my friend, Corbyn's success in 2017 was the high point for Labour in the past 15 years, despite the rightwing doing all they could to sabotage the election. A few thousand votes from forming a government (albeit with the SNP) - that Starmer can only dream of at this point. If he carries on like this he can still be replaced before the election, there's no point in electing another Labour government only to see the gap between rich and poor increase further.
 
High point unconverted and certainly not merited. More hopeful than sure. I’m surprised that Corbyn supporters still seek excuses for his general level of incompetence and peculiar popularity. And Im surprised that the sourness of the previous idefeat still pervades. They lost..under Corbyn... very badly..because he was not good enough. Simple.
 
au contraire my friend, Corbyn's success in 2017 was the high point for Labour in the past 15 years, despite the rightwing doing all they could to sabotage the election. A few thousand votes from forming a government (albeit with the SNP) - that Starmer can only dream of at this point. If he carries on like this he can still be replaced before the election, there's no point in electing another Labour government only to see the gap between rich and poor increase further.
Yep learned nothing and forgot nothing.
 
What will the life long socialist Labour supporter do with those answers at this ridiculously early stage in a Parliament?

Starmer would be a complete fool to publish a manifesto with nearly four years to an election. Labour supporters should be more interested in winning that election rather than giving sops to party activists, who in all likelihood want him to fail.
I did say in my post that I didn’t want a manifesto, but do want a sense of direction. What I want is something, anything, to indicate that Labour is to the left of the Tories, but at the moment the Tories are looking the more socially radical. The Tories are building the foundations of a new social policy to reinforce the ‘red wall’ and Labour do not seem to have an answer or a response. It’s like they’ve given up that ground. If Labour has given up standing on social radicalism, what does it stand for? What are it’s basic principles? Labour winning the next election isn’t worth a small pencil if they’re indistinguishable from the Tories.

On another point, the Labour Party is particularly dependant on it’s activists for any electoral success. The Tories have the media to get their message out, Labour needs people to knock on doors, give out leaflets, man market stalls and do a whole variety of things behind the scenes. They do all these things without pay or reward. They do these things because they believe in a cause. They don’t need a ‘sop’, whatever that means, they need to know that what they’re fighting for is something better than the Tories.

As things stand that’s far from clear
 
For Labour to be opposition they (we) need to let the Tories say what they intend to do. We don’t know what the landscape, or public opinion, will be in the coming years. There’s a trend in politics, more so under Johnson, to out-Labour Labour, to out-Green the Greens etc. There’s no point Labour showing it’s hand now. If you what opposition, you need to know what you're opposing first. In the meantime, concentrate on creating leadership.

By the way, everyone in Labour is left (almost everyone). The “left” are actually “I’m lefter than you”, and that’s different.
 
I did say in my post that I didn’t want a manifesto, but do want a sense of direction. What I want is something, anything, to indicate that Labour is to the left of the Tories, but at the moment the Tories are looking the more socially radical. The Tories are building the foundations of a new social policy to reinforce the ‘red wall’ and Labour do not seem to have an answer or a response. It’s like they’ve given up that ground. If Labour has given up standing on social radicalism, what does it stand for? What are it’s basic principles? Labour winning the next election isn’t worth a small pencil if they’re indistinguishable from the Tories.

On another point, the Labour Party is particularly dependant on it’s activists for any electoral success. The Tories have the media to get their message out, Labour needs people to knock on doors, give out leaflets, man market stalls and do a whole variety of things behind the scenes. They do all these things without pay or reward. They do these things because they believe in a cause. They don’t need a ‘sop’, whatever that means, they need to know that what they’re fighting for is something better than the Tories.

As things stand that’s far from clear

If you can't see that Labour stand to the left of the Tories on pretty much all bar the current financial support (at least until the funding plans are announced), you're not looking very hard.

If on the other hand, you are really lamenting the fact that it doesn't quite resemble Corbyn's then you are probably right to think some of that might be up for review, for no better reason that it didn't seem to inspire last time round. I would hope any leader coming to a party result like that would re-look at all aspects. I'd be content to see what conclusions were then arrived at before judgement.

I suspect "if they're indistinguishable from the Tories" will mean very different things to potential supporters than left wing activists.
 
...He has already said Brexit is settled so he’s heard you on that point.

He's making a serious mistake here too. The talks with the EU are virtually over - set to be scuppered by the Tories - and he's been completely silent.

Meanwhile Dodds is out playing the Blairite game of smooching the City bosses all over again (according to the FT). Starmer's unity just means 'do as I say'...
 
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