MM to MC move, how much of an upgrade?

[Tony L]

Your Series II SME with a fluid damper on might be just the ticket, however, I imagine your record choices would become somewhat limited, else you find yourself sprinting to the deck to lift the arm every time the ole Decca 'sets off' on its own.

Unfortunately I’m limited in hugely preferring the ferrous iron sub-platter on the TD-124 to the lighter alloy one, and apparently the magnet in a Decca is too strong and too low in the design to compensate for, otherwise I’d have one. My compromise is a Nagaoka MP-500, which is a lovely refined MI cartridge that will track absolutely anything one throws at it, though it will never have anything like the visceral impact and slam of a Decca.

 

[Craig B]

Yes, it was your MP-500 reporting that had me digging out my old MP-30H. Mine has had little use (due to having too many cartridges to swap round) and just needs to find a good home. I've a TD-125 MkII/3009 II 'Improved' here that I am refurbishing, so perhaps, with the included Nagaoka headshell *, this may be what gets fitted.

* as I don't believe that the wider mounting block of yore will fit an SME shell properly.

 

[Mike Reed]

One day, I may have to scratch that Decca itch. I presume a MM phono stage is all that is required?

And an arm which can cope with high compliance in the horizontal plane and next to none in the vertical!

Such an interesting thread, now expanding to include Deccas. I had one once; think it was a C4E but it may have been a more ordinary one (circa 1975) on a Decca International arm. I can remember the sonic fireworks but also the practical downsides. Not sure why it went, but I did leap into quadraphonics shortly after (my bro.-in-law still has the International, unused for many decades).

I've thought seriously about a Decca as a foil to my transfiguration on another arm, but it would need to go on a 12" N.A. Ace Anna unipivot (approx 14g mass?). I have no idea of compatibility for Deccas. Should I bury those aspirations?

 

[dave charlton]

The late Art Dudley refers to Decca's in his review of the Apheta (2006) -

https://www.stereophile.com/phonocartridges/1206rega/index.html

 

[monstrous lie]

Such an interesting thread, now expanding to include Deccas. I had one once; think it was a C4E but it may have been a more ordinary one (circa 1975) on a Decca International arm. I can remember the sonic fireworks but also the practical downsides. Not sure why it went, but I did leap into quadraphonics shortly after (my bro.-in-law still has the International, unused for many decades).

I've thought seriously about a Decca as a foil to my transfiguration on another arm, but it would need to go on a 12" N.A. Ace Anna unipivot (approx 14g mass?). I have no idea of compatibility for Deccas. Should I bury those aspirations?

As you probably know, Deccas love unipivot arms (and N.A. turntables). I used mine with a Hadcock 242 (about 11.5 gms effective mass) and it was as happy as Larry, as was I. It's a well known pairing made in heaven. Quite how much difference the extra effective mass of the Anna arm would make I'm not sure, but at 14gms it is still only what you would call medium mass, I guess. I suspect that combination would fly very well.
ML

 

[Craig B]

The late Art Dudley refers to Decca's in his review of the Apheta (2006) -

https://www.stereophile.com/phonocartridges/1206rega/index.html

Aside from the perennially interesting Deccas, the Rega Apheta is the first and only MC cartridge I know of to dispense with a traditional suspension altogether, excepting its fulcrum

Well, there were the Ikeda cantilever-less MCs; IKEDA-9R and IKEDA-9REX, also sold under the Jeff Rowland Design Group brand as 'Standard Compliment' and 'LH Compliment' (at $2500. and $1500. respectively) back in the late 80s through early 90s. Basically, a Decca like design, including a tie wire to restrain the armature, but with moving coils rather than the armature itself being of permalloy.

P.S. Since having stepped down, Isamu Ikeda's brand continues on, but all cartridges are conventional cantilever type MCs with prices ranging from $2800 to $8500.

 

[Arkless Electronics]

It is considerably more difficult to make a really good MC stage than an MM one and this should be borne in mind when comparing MM and MC carts.

 

[Mike Reed]

Quite how much difference the extra effective mass of the Anna arm would make I'm not sure, but at 14gms it is still only what you would call medium mass, I guess. I suspect that combination would fly very well.

Thanks for that.. As I have a VMS 20E mk 2 on the A.A. at the mo' (stuck it on to see if it worked after finding it in my bits 'n' bobs), this eff. mass thing has flexibility with many cart's. This cart. should be on a much lighter arm; one below 10g, I guess, but if I didn't have the Transfig., I could live happily with it. Quite surprising outcome which has made me just a wee bit sceptical about the sonic hierarchy vis a vis the phenomenal costs of higher level m/coils.

Maybe what you said, plus the lower tracing error of the 12" could suit (assuming elliptical styli on the Decca).

 

[TheDecameron]

It is considerably more difficult to make a really good MC stage than an MM one and this should be borne in mind when comparing MM and MC carts.

That’s one of the problems with the medium- the necessity of not just getting the TT arm and cartridge right but then spending enough on a phono stage to let them work at their full potential. A poor phono stage is capable of putting a wet blanket on proceedings.

 

[James]

James, that does surprise me. I don't, however, know the Ortofons, but I've had Helikon and Clavis, and heard Delos and Kleos, the latter being more refined than the Delos, but maybe less v.f.m.. Lyras are also supposedly good on unipivots (at least, certainly on Nott. Analogue arms). Your phrase 'musically important' doesn't really convey what I think the differences should be between Lyras' exuberance and the feeling I have of Ortofons' dead-pan delivery (I've had one or two, but a long time ago). Would you care to elaborate ?

Sure, for context I too have been a dyed-in-the-wool hardcore Lyra fan. Prior to my Kleos, I had a Clavis DC and Lydian Beta before that. So I'd like to think I know and love the Lyra house sound. I used a Dynavector P-75 in Dr.T mode for the Lyra, which sounds more authoritative and engaging than standard MC mode.

In direct comparison, the 2M Bronze (50kohm load, 100uF capacitance into a Pioneer C-21) sounds no less dynamic and seemed to have a more propulsive drive. The 2M doesn't have the ultimate finesse of the Lyra, but that is more a sin of omission than commission - which I can live with. It has spades of PRaT to make up for its shortfall in inky blackness, shimmer and air. The Ortofon 2M Bronze is most definitely not deadpan in its performance. In the context of my LP12/ARO, the humble 2M still betters CDs played on a Densen B-440XS, which is no slouch.

However in fairness, I think I have shortchanged the Kleos with the P-75. The Lyra deserves a better phono amp. So I may not have heard the Kleos at its best.

 

[Mike Reed]

However in fairness, I think I have shortchanged the Kleos with the P-75. The Lyra deserves a better phono amp. So I may not have heard the Kleos at its best.

Thanks, James. I think you may have it there, though I've no experience of Dv stages (which I think are in the 'affordable' range? Could be wrong there) I used my Clavis (on Orbe/Five) into Naim boards initially, then Prefix K, though the Helikon straddled that period. Not sure if the Helikon was around when I had the Superline/Supercap as I went to K Black, then Urushi, plus Benz Ebony. My Proteus has only known the on-board stages of my 912 EAR pre., so difficult, with hindsight, to gauge compatibility with one thing or another since 1995, esp. as the Orbe/Five made way for Dais and two 12" arms.

Some say the Kleos was the Helikon's successor (rather than the Delos). My friend still uses his despite the fact that his Titan i is idle on the Orbe/Five he has been hoarding since getting SME 20/3 with Phantom on.Baffles me ! There are too many variables in hifi, and only generalisations can be made; so many generalisations can, though, form a consensus about certain kit and systems. Maybe you did short-change the Kleos a bit, and I've found such a difference in cart./stage synergy over the years, now preferring my valve-based connections.

 

[James]

The DV P-75 is very affordably priced, but it punches well above its weight. To illustrate, prior to the P-75, I was using a Prefix K with my Clavis DC. The Prefix was initially powered directly from a 52, then later directly by a standalone Supercap. I bought the P-75 because it sounded better than the Supercapped Prefix.

There are undoubtedly better phono amps than the P-75. But I struggle to justify the expense when I'm getting so much from an MM cart that doesn't need a separate phono amp to my preamplifier.

 

[Brennus]

I changed from Naim mc cards in my 32.5 powered by a TPR4/Snaps to a mk ii dv75. Easily better, and removing the phono cards from the preamp improved it too. I also tried a Chord phono stage- it was very impressive but I couldn’t live with its appearance.

 

[mercalia]

Sure, for context I too have been a dyed-in-the-wool hardcore Lyra fan. Prior to my Kleos, I had a Clavis DC and Lydian Beta before that. So I'd like to think I know and love the Lyra house sound. I used a Dynavector P-75 in Dr.T mode for the Lyra, which sounds more authoritative and engaging than standard MC mode.

In direct comparison, the 2M Bronze (50kohm load, 100uF capacitance into a Pioneer C-21) sounds no less dynamic and seemed to have a more propulsive drive. The 2M doesn't have the ultimate finesse of the Lyra, but that is more a sin of omission than commission - which I can live with. It has spades of PRaT to make up for its shortfall in inky blackness, shimmer and air. The Ortofon 2M Bronze is most definitely not deadpan in its performance. In the context of my LP12/ARO, the humble 2M still betters CDs played on a Densen B-440XS, which is no slouch.

However in fairness, I think I have shortchanged the Kleos with the P-75. The Lyra deserves a better phono amp. So I may not have heard the Kleos at its best.

The thing about the 2M Bronze, it sounds good and is affordable?

 

[James]

The thing about the 2M Bronze, it sounds good and is affordable?

Well, I really like it and will buy another ... if I don't get tempted to 'upgrade' to the Black stylus.

 

[Mr Pig]

Well, I really like it and will buy another ... if I don't get tempted to 'upgrade' to the Black stylus.

I had a 2M Black but right now I'm listening to Grado prestige Green2 and...it's beautiful. More like a MC than a few MCs I've heard.

 

[Allaboutmusic]

Has anyone compared rega elex r, brio or elicit r internal phono stages vs the Aria MM output?

I have been offered a discount on a new mk3 version plus can trade my speakers in towards the cost and think I will go for it. I understand it is a step up on the MM side from my elexr r and will allow for a MC in future. Only catch is that they don't have a demo unit at the moment, thus seeking opinions.

Likely will go for it as my speakers don't seem to be shifting and will allow for system growth or if I change amps in future etc but would be good to hear from anyone who has done this.

 

[barryb]

Yes, the Aria should be notably better - lower capicitance also. Very well regarded unit, new face lift is an improvement imo too.

 

[Allaboutmusic]

Yes, the Aria should be notably better - lower capicitance also. Very well regarded unit, new face lift is an improvement imo too.

Thanks.

What difference does the lower capacitance make? Is that relevant to MM or MC?

Thanks again.

 

[BigBlue2020]

I listened to a demo once and upgrading from an Ortofon 2M Black MM to the Quintet Black MC was a clear upgrade on detail and with a lighter quicker sound (on a very expensive Project deck I think)