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Brexit: give me a positive effect... III

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Just change a few words and this applies to you and the other 'Brexit supporters on PFM.

I want Britain and the EU to succeed. I believe that both those aims being met with the UK being part of the EU. That's the difference between us.

I certainly have a deep contempt for the EU, but I equally certainly don't want it to 'fail', although my interpretation of failure might be very different to yours. I would like to have seen the EU completely reconsider its direction - 'fundamentally' reform. It has shown itself time and time again systemically incapable of any change of direction, let alone reform. The problem is that its systemic incapacity to reform is risking its own existence. If it implodes, it will have entirely brought it upon itself.

PS. You do realise you are also a PFM Brexit 'drone' too?

Stephen

Of course I do. I'm not so arrogant as to be unable to see that, otherwise I wouldn't have said it.
 
On college fees. There are two programmes that are being (wilfully?) confused here.

First is Erasmus, the exchange scheme for enrolled students in EU colleges. This is usually a 60/40% split of location over an undergraduate degree, but it also covers some post-graduate studies which are full time abroad.
The second is the general agreements regarding capping of college fees, which stem from the freedom of movement and single market principles.

First off, there's no such thing as free education. Either your government pays for it, or you do. No lecturer works for free (although having done the job for a few years, I'll add that sometimes it feels like it). It's kind of sad that I have to point this out, but it seems to be missed.

So, under Erasmus, undergraduates pay the fees that their home institution charges, and when they do the "exchange" part of the study, they pay nothing extra. Regarding Scotland, that means that a student enrolled in a university in a fee-paying country has to pay for the Scottish leg of their exchange, even though their Scottish classmates don't when they go to the other country. The colleges remit details of student exchanges to their governments, and the EU member-states settle up the differences in funding: because Erasmus is an exchange, these differences usually amount to not a lot really.

If you wish to apply to a foreign institution to study a full course abroad, your rights come under the various EU treaties, and these say that no EU national can be discriminated against when in another member state. That means that an EU national cannot be charged more than a native of the country would be. In Scotland, which did not charge tuition, that means you pay no tuition; in England, which does, that means you do have to pay tuition, but you cannot be charged more than a UK citizen would have been.

However, (and this is where the xenophobic bullshit of Brexiters diverges from reality) a Belgian studying in Scotland isn't getting one over on the Scottish taxpayer. Their studies are paid for by... the Belgian taxpayer. Just like in Erasmus, every government balances their account to ensure that onc country isn't losing out by paying to educate students whose taxes were paid into another country's education budget. In this case, there usually are significant transfers, as some countries attract higher numbers of foreign students than others. (The UK was a net beneficiary of this scheme, not so much because it has very good universities as because UK students don't study abroad as much as their continental cousins)

Incidentally, excluding "rest-of-UK" students from Scotaland's free tuition regime was dictated by Westminster, partially at the request of the English universities that didn't want to be undercut, but also because the cost of educating those non-Scottish UK students would eventually have fallen back to Westminster, which would have negated its effort to slash education budgets by imposing fees.

The EU member states were happy to pay for the education of their students in Scotland, so that's why they got "free" places while the English didn't.

And once again, we find that all along it was the Westminster government that was responsible for shafting the English, and not the EU...

The Scottish government don't appear to see the bigger picture you describe and believe they will have a net saving of £19 million; the other figure reported was a total funding cost of £97 million.Apologies for the source but it was the only one not behind a pay wall, i do try to use the Guardian when available.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/poli...tion-fees-university-free-tuition-eu-students
Our friends at the Guardian suggest freebies.
On 24 June, universities minister Michelle Donelan announced that, as a consequence of Brexit, EU and EEA students would be classified as overseas students starting from the 2021/22 academic year. They will be charged full tuition (up to £20,000 in some cases), lose access to the tuition fee loan, and no longer be eligible for many needs-based funds. It signalled the end of a brief period of time when it seemed UK universities could serve international social and academic mobility.
https://www.theguardian.com/educati...pay-higher-fees-is-a-blow-for-social-mobility
 
Point me to where I wrote that, would you.

Here you go.

The positive benefits of brexit, if there are to be any, are currently unknown, as we haven't yet brexited.

That’s more like it!. Could you imagine that strap line on the big red bus- “if at all”.

More like what? I've written the same thing several times.

Cue "I didn't say "won't". I said "If there are to be any""
Yes you did. The meaning is clear.
 
The Scottish government don't appear to see the bigger picture you describe and believe they will have a net saving of £19 million; the other figure reported was a total funding cost of £97 million.Apologies for the source but it was the only one not behind a pay wall, i do try to use the Guardian when available.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/poli...tion-fees-university-free-tuition-eu-students
Our friends at the Guardian suggest freebies.
On 24 June, universities minister Michelle Donelan announced that, as a consequence of Brexit, EU and EEA students would be classified as overseas students starting from the 2021/22 academic year. They will be charged full tuition (up to £20,000 in some cases), lose access to the tuition fee loan, and no longer be eligible for many needs-based funds. It signalled the end of a brief period of time when it seemed UK universities could serve international social and academic mobility.
https://www.theguardian.com/educati...pay-higher-fees-is-a-blow-for-social-mobility

The "saving" is alluded to in that quote. Because the EU students will now be treated the same as, for example, Australian students, the universities can set whatever fees they wish, untroubled even by the UK's own pretty high fee cap. Prior to this, they were allocated funding equivalent to the cost of tutoring one Scot for every EU student they taught. If you're not well acquainted with the financial aspects of how higher-education works, I'll summarise by saying that one foreign (non-EU) student is worth about three to five native ones: there are a few universities who depend on foreign students (especially Chinese) to balance their books.

The number of applicants from the EU will plummet as a result of this change, but the top colleges are quids in: 2x £20,000 is better for them than 5x £8,000 was, and the insatiable demand from China for English-speaking higher education means they'll fill the other places easily.
 
The "saving" is alluded to in that quote. Because the EU students will now be treated the same as, for example, Australian students, the universities can set whatever fees they wish, untroubled even by the UK's own pretty high fee cap. Prior to this, they were allocated funding equivalent to the cost of tutoring one Scot for every EU student they taught. If you're not well acquainted with the financial aspects of how higher-education works, I'll summarise by saying that one foreign (non-EU) student is worth about three to five native ones: there are a few universities who depend on foreign students (especially Chinese) to balance their books.

The number of applicants from the EU will plummet as a result of this change, but the top colleges are quids in: 2x £20,000 is better for them than 5x £8,000 was, and the insatiable demand from China for English-speaking higher education means they'll fill the other places easily.

From a native Scot point of view they have more of a chance of getting into a Scottish university, assuming as you say the number of applicants from the EU will plummet.
 
Quite. Wait until Jan 1st.

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Look at the sight of UK manufacturing becoming totally uncompetitive as it can't get the just in time parts and can't get its orders out on time. Can't wait. It'll be awesome.
What a sad comment i would never wish this on our trading partners in the EU.
 
From a native Scot point of view they have more of a chance of getting into a Scottish university, assuming as you say the number of applicants from the EU will plummet.

From the point of view of someone who calls Scotland his home and wants independence, you are exactly the kind of little England “patriot” that we want to get away from. Ignorance piled on parochialism is a deadly mix.
 
From the point of view of someone who calls Scotland his home and wants independence, you are exactly the kind of little England “patriot” that we want to get away from. Ignorance piled on parochialism is a deadly mix.
How do you think an independent Scotland with a 7% deficit would survive?
 
My words;

The positive benefits of brexit, if there are to be any, are currently unknown, as we haven't yet brexited.

Your words;

I think it was "name a positive effect of Brexit" and after 280 pages you've said "Well, there won't be one. Never said there would". So why are we still discussing it?

Here you go.

Cue "I didn't say "won't". I said "If there are to be any""
Yes you did. The meaning is clear.

The significant difference apart, you're talking bollocks, and in the process of talking bollocks, accusing me of saying words that I didn't say, as well as insinuating interpretations of my own words that I don't hold.

I thought you said that you didn't deliberately antagonise/put words into my mouth/talk bollocks a few chapters ago. You can have your bloody jelly baby back.
 
Colin B,

The OBR calculates the UK deficit will be 15+% of GDP in 2020. How are you planning to survive, and btw googling desperately isn’t a viable survival strategy.
 
My words;



Your words;





The significant difference apart, you're talking bollocks, and in the process of talking bollocks, accusing me of saying words that I didn't say, as well as insinuating interpretations of my own words that I don't hold.

I thought you said that you didn't deliberately antagonise/put words into my mouth/talk bollocks a few chapters ago. You can have your bloody jelly baby back.
Put your toys back. The meaning was clear, which is why both Decameron and I have remarked on it.
 
From a native Scot point of view they have more of a chance of getting into a Scottish university, assuming as you say the number of applicants from the EU will plummet.
No, it won't. Remember: up to five times as much money for a foreign student. Most universities already run an intake policy were X% of places are reserved for foreign students. All this means is that they'll replace the EU students who've stopped applying with a few more Chinese students instead. It's down to money.

This move will not create more places for domestic students. Universities have to maintain high entry standards - it's part of maintaining their reputation, and they do this by reducing availability of places to local students who enter via UCAS (or equivalent national selection services). You set out a course with 30 places, reserve 10 for foreigners, and put 20 onto selection. Then in your prospectus, you publish the lowest A-level results that won a place last year beside the "30 places available", without mentioning that that A-level result was obtained by the 20th person in, not the 30th. The other ten places are auctioned off with the university itself choosing who to admit...
 
Put your toys back. The meaning was clear, which is why both Decameron and I have remarked on it.

What ET said: The positive benefits of brexit, if there are to be any, are currently unknown, as we haven't yet brexited.
What you claim ET said: Well, there won't be one. Never said there would".

There is no similarity between these two statements. This is an example of the kind of shite from hard remainers referred to in another thread. “He didn’t say something I can argue with, so I’ll make out he said something else”.

ET did not say what you have stated he said.

*******************************

Here are the posts in one place.

I think it was "name a positive effect of Brexit" and after 280 pages you've said "Well, there won't be one. Never said there would". So why are we still discussing it?

Point me to where I wrote that, would you.

Here you go.

The positive benefits of brexit, if there are to be any, are currently unknown, as we haven't yet brexited.

Cue "I didn't say "won't". I said "If there are to be any""
Yes you did. The meaning is clear.
Not for you.
 
Let's get this straight. Are you telling me what I meant?
Park the faux outrage. I'm telling you the meaning of what you typed, in the context of the other posts that relate to it. Whether you meant that is another matter but the meaning both I and Dec picked up on is clearly and heavily implied.
 
Park the faux outrage. I'm telling you the meaning of what you typed, in the context of the other posts that relate to it. Whether you meant that is another matter but the meaning both I and Dec picked up on is clearly and heavily implied.
Grow up.
 
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