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Open letter denouncing the "restriction of debate".

Well, being a wishy-washy liberal and all, I can see that it's fairly pointless for, say, a white older bloke to try to understand what a young black woman thinks or feels about things. Our lives will have been totally different. But the answer to that is not to shut out any voices that might state things with which you disagree, or feel vaguely 'uncomfortable' about.
 
Joe Hutch said:
Well, being a wishy-washy liberal and all, I can see that it's fairly pointless for, say, a white older bloke to try to understand what a young black woman thinks or feels about things. Our lives will have been totally different. But the answer to that is not to shut out any voices that might state things with which you disagree, or feel vaguely 'uncomfortable' about.
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Exactly. I can't walk a mile in her shoes, but I can genuinely support her concerns. But at the moment, I feel inhibited in saying so publicly, for fear of some inadvertent transgression.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
I'm afraid I'm moving in that direction. I have a friend and former colleague who is trans, she transitioned over 25 years ago so I consider myself to have long been aware of, and sympathetic to, the issues faced by trans people. But I would genuinely be wary of discussing matters with some of the current activists lest my attitude be found wanting in some crucial regard. I don't think this is doing the movement any favours. Hopefully it's a blip.
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Same here.- a friend went the whole way...i supported him on his journey back then but was horrified at how much money is made or at least was made of the backs of people in that situation. Counsellors, pychiatrist, plastic surgeons, drug companies, support transitioning groups, clinics and that was 20 years ago.unbelievable amounts of money involved in promoting surgical outcomes.

I also have a young 20 year old in my close family who is in process but they are in a completely different milieu but to my mind also vestid interests. Given her life history I know its a reactive choice which in earlier generations time healed

....now there are ideologues involved on top of peoples journey to self discovery.

There are things to consider but bolshevism via its preferrd mode of identity victim politics only sees oppression and oppressors and have co opted the debate...hence Ms Rowlings concerns
 
I have no idea what this Rowling woman has done but then I haven’t read any of her books either.

Closer to the home of pfm, I would say there are quite a few avoid anything to do with the topic of brexit for fear of an inadvertent transgression. Attempts to shut down discussion and/or inhibit people from offering an opinion has become commonplace behaviour among some people on the internet.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
Exactly. I can't walk a mile in her shoes, but I can genuinely support her concerns. But at the moment, I feel inhibited in saying so publicly, for fear of some inadvertent transgression.
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There's also the issue of which identity 'trumps' (no pun intended) another. Ultimately, we can each only speak to our own experiences, but if we narrow it down too much, we will end up with a situation where, not only can white people not discuss issues affecting black people, and men not discuss issues affecting women, but cisgender people (white or black, male or female) can't talk about issues affecting non-cisgender people.
 
Brian said:
I have no idea what this Rowling woman has done but then I haven’t read any of her books either.

Closer to the home of pfm, I would say there are quite a few avoid anything to do with the topic of brexit for fear of an inadvertent transgression.
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Or terminal boredom resulting from endless circular arguments.

On A N Other forum, there was a controversial discussion around whether coronavirus was a hoax led by Big Pharma. The only medical doctor on the forum wisely avoided joining in.
 
Brian said:
I have no idea what this Rowling woman has done but then I haven’t read any of her books either.

Closer to the home of pfm, I would say there are quite a few avoid anything to do with the topic of brexit for fear of an inadvertent transgression.
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Pfm is broadly pro-Remain as you know. If there are 'quite a few' who support Brexit, but are afraid to voice their views that's a shame but I rather suspect you are overstating it a tad. My feeling is that most Brexitiers are, at least initially, received in a spirit of frankness. I do believe there is a genuine desire to understand the upsides of Brexit so I don't agree with your characterisation here. However, if those Brexitiers who do participate simply regurgitate UKIP guff, without much evidence of having troubled themselves with any intellectual analysis, they'll get short shrift. But genuine debate is not stifled, in my view.
 
Joe Hutch said:
There's also the issue of which identity 'trumps' (no pun intended) another. Ultimately, we can each only speak to our own experiences, but if we narrow it down too much, we will end up with a situation where, not only can white people not discuss issues affecting black people, and men not discuss issues affecting women, but cisgender people (white or black, male or female) can't talk about issues affecting non-cisgender people.
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As I understand it the situation at present is by all means join the conversation (in any of the areas you list) but don't centre it on yourself and don't expect someone else to be your school teacher. (Pretty much the opposite of asking advice about audio!)
When I come to a conversation from a place of privilege it is up to me to try to recognise and negate that in someone else's space.
 
Coda II said:
As I understand it the situation at present is by all means join the conversation (in any of the areas you list) but don't centre it on yourself and don't expect someone else to be your school teacher. (Pretty much the opposite of asking advice about audio!)
When I come to a conversation from a place of privilege it is up to me to try to recognise and negate that in someone else's space.
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I acknowledge that, but if you join a debate in a genuine attempt to learn, surely you are expecting those more experienced to be your guide? If you can’t expect those who understand the issues to tutor those who don’t, then we’ll never get anywhere, we’ll just retrench further into our own cliques. Why is it unacceptable for me, with my empirical understanding of the issues, to engage with somebody who understands every nuance. Why should I have to meet some notional pre-entry requirement before I’m permitted to participate?

There is an air of suppressed anger to much of this debate. I completely understand why, but the anger ought not to be directed at those expressing a willingness to open their minds to the issue, surely.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
I acknowledge that, but if you join a debate in a genuine attempt to learn, surely you are expecting those more experienced to be your guide? If you can’t expect those who understand the issues to tutor those who don’t, then we’ll never get anywhere, we’ll just retrench further into our own cliques. Why is it unacceptable for me, with my empirical understanding of the issues, to engage with somebody who understands every nuance. Why should I have to meet some notional pre-entry requirement before I’m permitted to participate?

There is an air of suppressed anger to much of this debate. I completely understand why, but the anger ought not to be directed at those expressing a willingness to open their minds to the issue, surely.
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I agree. But, from a very early age 'a genuine attempt to learn' involves some effort for the student and it is the 'are you prepared to make the effort' bit that seams to be a bit of a stumbling block. Of course, showing that you are prepared to make the effort can then appear performative. Which actually comes back to this letter; if the text itself is indeed bland, then what was the point in printing it/signing it?
 
Coda II said:
I agree. But, from a very early age 'a genuine attempt to learn' involves some effort for the student and it is the 'are you prepared to make the effort' bit that seams to be a bit of a stumbling block. Of course, showing that you are prepared to make the effort can then appear performative. Which actually comes back to this letter; if the text itself is indeed bland, then what was the point in printing it/signing it?
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I take the point, but there are many, many issues which matter today and it is difficult for a well-meaning person to become adequately tutored in all of them while also having a life. Doesn't mean they should feel shut out of the conversation, indeed surely the point is to initiate a conversation with those who understand less, otherwise all you do is create your own bubble.
 
AndyU said:
Most recently, she wrote this: https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/...ns-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/
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I have noticed that my daughters high school has a suspiciously large number of trans girls - I see numbers have risen enormously in the UK too. I am suspicious that well intentioned and overdue efforts to broaden sex education may be sowing false doubts in the minds of children who are at a vulnerable age. However I darent say anything to other parents for fear of being seen as being anti LGBTQ which I am most certainly not.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
I take the point, but there are many, many issues which matter today and it is difficult for a well-meaning person to become adequately tutored in all of them while also having a life. Doesn't mean they should feel shut out of the conversation, indeed surely the point is to initiate a conversation with those who understand less, otherwise all you do is create your own bubble.
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Yes, agree again.
 
sean99 said:
I have noticed that my daughters high school has a suspiciously large number of trans girls - I see numbers have risen enormously in the UK too. I am suspicious that well intentioned and overdue efforts to broaden sex education may be sowing false doubts in the minds of children who are at a vulnerable age. However I darent say anything to other parents for fear of being seen as being anti LGBTQ which I am most certainly not.
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My niece announced, at the age of 12 that she thought she was bisexual. At 13, she thought she was gay, and at 14 she has a boyfriend.
 
I can't deny there's a part of me that wonders how some of the trans activists look at the review of the current review of three medical tragedies some women have faced. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-53307593

There's a whole biological vs preference thing going on. We seem to confuse the two or get too hung up about it. I'm honestly not sure what to think or what I'm allowed to think.
 
Coda II said:
Which actually comes back to this letter; if the text itself is indeed bland, then what was the point in printing it/signing it?
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It's like declarations from the UN or G8/20/whatever; the difference in views of those members are so varied, they can only agree on the broadest principles. Of course, they have the smarts to know that, despite it being bland AF, to stick to it to show unanimity; its value goes out the window when signatories then recant and add conditions, retractions and destroy any veneer of unity.

I think the letter makes a good point as well as it could in the environment we find ourselves in. The ensuing behaviour of some has just negated its point showing the world how fragmented we are and how difficult it is to agree on anything.
 
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