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Record cleaning - re-contamination

V

vesuvian

pfm Member
How much of an issue is the re-contamination of records from the velvet/felt lips of a vacuum suction arm?

I'm trying to decide between a high quality one-step ultrasonic (Degritter or Audio Desk) or traditional vacuum RCM (Nessie VinylMaster).

I am not convinced that ultrasonic record cleaning is totally safe (although there's strong evidence that the AD machine is not a true US cleaner) and also wonder whether the blow drying of records with the aforementioned US cleaners is actually no better than the typical vacuum suction method with regard to re-contamination.

Notwithstanding the safety issue, are the results obtained with US cleaning consistently better than with a high-end traditional RCM such as the Nessie?

(BTW, I've discounted point suction machines (Loricraft/Monks) because I find their operation too fiddly and time-consuming.)
 
vesuvian said:
How much of an issue is the re-contamination of records from the velvet/felt lips of a vacuum suction arm?

I'm trying to decide between a high quality one-step ultrasonic (Degritter or Audio Desk) or traditional vacuum RCM (Nessie VinylMaster).

I am not convinced that ultrasonic record cleaning is totally safe (although there's strong evidence that the AD machine is not a true US cleaner) and also wonder whether the blow drying of records with the aforementioned US cleaners is actually no better than the typical vacuum suction method with regard to re-contamination.

Notwithstanding the safety issue, are the results obtained with US cleaning consistently better than with a high-end traditional RCM such as the Nessie?

(BTW, I've discounted point suction machines (Loricraft/Monks) because I find their operation too fiddly and time-consuming.)
Click to expand...

Thats a shame as they do a propper cleaning job and have a 5 year warrantee
I went deaf using a Moth and Okki Nokki as they are LOUD also they are just as fiddley in use
I would not recomend ultra sonic machines for repeted use , I only US clean my records one then on my PRC4 :)
 
Point machines suck best, and leave no damp line when they release. My OKKI NOK is not LOUD in capitals...a lot quieter than my vacuum or lawnmower, but not silent either. When the velvet pads wear (maybe 100 albums?) they retain liquid and leave a mess on release. New pads (inexpensive and glued on very simply) solve the issue. I 'm not sure apart from that wet mark from old pads what 'recontamination' is.
 
Rockmeister said:
Point machines suck best, and leave no damp line when they release. My OKKI NOK is not LOUD in capitals...a lot quieter than my vacuum or lawnmower, but not silent either. When the velvet pads wear (maybe 100 albums?) they retain liquid and leave a mess on release. New pads (inexpensive and glued on very simply) solve the issue. I 'm not sure apart from that wet mark from old pads what 'recontamination' is.
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Have they re designed them ? My one was tedious in use , Ear defenders used , Put me of cleaning records and was soon sold on , I SAID SOLD ON :D
 
I use the Okki Nokki RCM and it does a good job. It’s noisy, but not uncomfortably loud by any means. As Rockmeister has already said, the velvet pads are easily changed and cost about £7-£8 a pair. When I worked through my collection originally, I used new Anti static inners to protect the clean records, and the cleaning process adds a sense of pride in the now pristine collection. Other RCMs of this type are available such a the Nessie etc. The ON does a great job though.
 
vesuvian said:
How much of an issue is the re-contamination of records from the velvet/felt lips of a vacuum suction arm?
Click to expand...

A total non-issue IMO. Basically with brand new records you are just removing the mould-release agent and any crap from paper sleeves etc. With second hand vinyl anything can be in the grooves, fingermarks, nicotine, dope, jam sandwiches, mould, literally anything. Even so it doesn’t matter as the whole purpose of a wet vacuum cleaner is to suspend the crud in the liquid after scrubbing and very quickly vacuum it off. With some really filthy second hand records you may end up doing them twice, maybe even three times to really get the crap out, but there really is no need to over-think this. The important thing with record cleaning is the brush, scrubbing technique and solution. All the suction arm does is get it off afterwards, and get it off it does.

PS There is obviously nothing stopping you washing the suction arm if you feel it has actually picked up some contamination from a really filthy record.
 
Tony L said:
PS There is obviously nothing stopping you washing the suction arm if you feel it has actually picked up some contamination from a really filthy record.
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Yes, but won't crud accumulate after cleaning just a few averagely dirty records?

I might be over-thinking this but a USP of the point suction machines is that a new section of thread is used for each record side, thus eliminating any re-contamination.

What I like about the Nessie Vinylmaster is that, in contrast to the Loricraft/Monks machines, it takes the guesswork out of the cleaning process by automatically dispensing a precise amount of cleaning fluid and then doing a timed bi-directional clean (and the platter spins a lot slower, which I imagine improves cleaning efficiency). Of course, the vacuuming cycle is much quicker too.
 
You get some fluff build up on the velvet pads, but it just wipes off with your finger - gone.
 
.... as opposed to the Audio desk which recycles the same fluid round and round a hundred times or more!
 
vesuvian said:
Yes, but won't crud accumulate after cleaning just a few averagely dirty records?
Click to expand...

Not an issue on my Project machine. I use a second rinse with just deionised water and wetting agent after the main clean. There are times when I think that’s OTT. If it worries you clean the pads after a cleaning session.
 
vesuvian said:
Yes, but won't crud accumulate after cleaning just a few averagely dirty records?
Click to expand...

It just doesn’t! Remember the percentage of ‘crap’ to the cleaning solution really is tiny, plus it is suspended in the solution so ends up in the RCM’s waste tank. Honestly this is a total non-issue.
 
I brush the detritus off the felt pads after every clean. For one, it's easy and for two, it gives an indication of how much crud was on/in the grooves. To use the pads again with existing residue seems counter-intuitive at best.

A post above extols one virtue of the point vacuum inasmuch as it leaves the record drier. A vacuum cannot dry; only evaporation can do that without a warm blow job. Hence leaving the record on the platter for a minute +/- depending on ambient temperature (with IPA mix, that is). On some records, after vacuuming, if you lift off and hold it up to a good light, you can see the drying process.
 
Ultrasonic uses the same fluid and dirt / oils in a bath & not ideal for removing stubborn organics like mold/finger prints etc Blow drying even with a filter still blows micro particles onto the freshly cleaned record unless you live in a test lab or clean room
went back to my trusty PRC6 once my audiodesk broke again & quoted almost £1000 to get it fixed under warranty
PRC6 is only one that makes no noise at all & never missed a beat in almost daily use for over 10years love the timeless look of the Loricraft
 
daytona600 said:
Ultrasonic uses the same fluid and dirt / oils in a bath & not ideal for removing stubborn organics like mold/finger prints etc Blow drying even with a filter still blows micro particles onto the freshly cleaned record unless you live in a test lab or clean room
Click to expand...

Well, that's certainly a recommendation for ultrasonic cleaners !;) I'm a bit dubious about the cost, reliability, lack or vacuum (in some?), the form of drying facility (in some) and actually the re-use of (expensive?) fluid, presumably with filter maintenance on top. Okay, I'm prepared to accept that actual cleaning may be better, otherwise why on Earth would they gain credibility?

Maybe they will, with adaptation, become more mainstream, but not for me as I've done my lot; took a year or three, but my expensive styli are proof of the pudding in their lack of need for maintenance (as far as I can see or hear).
 
vesuvian said:
How much of an issue is the re-contamination of records from the velvet/felt lips of a vacuum suction arm?

I'm trying to decide between a high quality one-step ultrasonic (Degritter or Audio Desk) or traditional vacuum RCM (Nessie VinylMaster).

I am not convinced that ultrasonic record cleaning is totally safe (although there's strong evidence that the AD machine is not a true US cleaner) and also wonder whether the blow drying of records with the aforementioned US cleaners is actually no better than the typical vacuum suction method with regard to re-contamination.

Notwithstanding the safety issue, are the results obtained with US cleaning consistently better than with a high-end traditional RCM such as the Nessie?

(BTW, I've discounted point suction machines (Loricraft/Monks) because I find their operation too fiddly and time-consuming.)
Click to expand...
Have you seen the German Hannl-systems range of RCMs..... Very techy and expensive but seem well thought thru and engineered. I'll stick with my Project VCS!
 
vesuvian said:
(BTW, I've discounted point suction machines (Loricraft/Monks) because I find their operation too fiddly and time-consuming.)
Click to expand...

Yes, I know what you mean, but they do have the advantage that the bit that touches the records is replenished each time, but if you find them to be a pita, then that counts for nothing.
 
AudioAl said:
Thats a shame as they do a propper cleaning job and have a 5 year warrantee
I went deaf using a Moth and Okki Nokki as they are LOUD also they are just as fiddley in use
I would not recomend ultra sonic machines for repeted use , I only US clean my records one then on my PRC4 :)
Click to expand...
The Okki Nokki is loud I now use the RCM from Project it's a whisper compared to the Okki in fact used to insert ear plugs when cleaning with it.
 
Tony L said:
A total non-issue IMO. Basically with brand new records you are just removing the mould-release agent and any crap from paper sleeves etc. With second hand vinyl anything can be in the grooves, fingermarks, nicotine, dope, jam sandwiches, mould, literally anything. Even so it doesn’t matter as the whole purpose of a wet vacuum cleaner is to suspend the crud in the liquid after scrubbing and very quickly vacuum it off. With some really filthy second hand records you may end up doing them twice, maybe even three times to really get the crap out, but there really is no need to over-think this. The important thing with record cleaning is the brush, scrubbing technique and solution. All the suction arm does is get it off afterwards, and get it off it does.

PS There is obviously nothing stopping you washing the suction arm if you feel it has actually picked up some contamination from a really filthy record.
Click to expand...
By the sounds of it you have some funny stories to tell regarding second hand records Tony.
 
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