Darren L
Egalitarian
Haha, hands like Thanos.
Ouch, I bet that hurt a little, always best to work at a clean worktop, bench or table while seated. Especially if like me you require reading specs for these fiddly jobs.
Turntable vs Arm vs Cartridge
- Thread starter Mr Pig
- Start date
Haha, hands like Thanos.
Ouch, I bet that hurt a little, always best to work at a clean worktop, bench or table while seated. Especially if like me you require reading specs for these fiddly jobs.
Good question, James.
From what I've managed to glean over the years, the answer is less related to 'filtering', and more related to 'transference'; or more accurately, signal transference as a result of geometric transference. What has come to be described as tracing distortion doesn't necessarily cause groove damage, more a case of the tip following whatever path it can trace; the deviation from intended signal being a function of tip r being >= groove r.
Specifically, with two undulating groove walls, each positioned at 45º to vertical, and at 90º to one another, any undulations that cannot be fully read by a given tip profile will result in an upward deflection of the stylus/cantilever (aka pinch affect). As any deflection generates an electrical response, what is created by this unintended vertical travel is a 2nd harmonic of the lowest frequency which cannot be directly scanned. This will dominate other 2nd harmonic distortion mechanisms, such as those of overhang/offset misalignment. Unlike anharmonic distortions, 2nd harmonics can sound quite pleasing; old tube amps and dynamic loudspeakers generate lots of them.
For a visual representation, the following plan view graphic, from Namiki Precison Jewel Co. Ltd., not only illustrates pinch affect via diameter/cross-section reduction of the contact patch elevation, but also how the two contact patches become misaligned wrt a 90º bisector of the mean groove travel (the arrows either side), dynamically altering phase in a similar fashion.
Is there something on par with a micro ridge profile or is it just their terminology for a similar profile used by others? What with Micro Line, Super Line Contact, Line Contact, Shibata, VDH, etc. it all seems a bit daft.
There doesn't seem to be too many carts using Micro Ridge, I just wondered why.
daytona600
Registered User
Carts using MR tips £250 to £10k
Mike Reed
pfm Member
Not sure of the difference there, Simon; aren't they both the same profile despite one being 'based' upon a sphere and t'other a cone?
It's probably more that many other turntables add their own colour to the sound. The Rega..doesn't sound like anything. You get the strong impression that what you are hearing is how the record actually sounds. Personally, I quite like the 'bloom' on the early LP12 but the Rega is so strong in other areas, like pretty much every other area, that the trade off is worth it.
Go on then list some. Off the top of my head I only know of the Benzs and I think one of the DV carts uses an MR.
I attended one of those classic album listening parties a while back (in reality, just a bunch fellow music geeks, very convivial atmosphere, recommended), nice hifi set-up, good music playing.
Sound was very nice, providing for a good seat, thats is - far better than typical hifi show fair. I assumed an expensive cart was in place but when all was said and done I was shocked to see a Rega Carbon performing duties (AT95e or 3600?). Anyway, sounded more than fine, no notable deficits like sibilance or noise but perhaps a good clean pressing helped it play nice.
I read over on Audio Science Review that most carts exhibit a fairly similar magnitude of distortion, and more aggressive cuts obviously are more particular of set-up to extract potentially better tracking and so on. Accordingly, I'm considering something like a 33EV or Mp200 next. Perhaps more than good enough for what I want.
Indeed, if you care to take a gander at exotica reviews in Hifi-news, the FR's are...interesting. Tracking capability often very average, sometimes less so. Yes, I accept measurements aren't everything but I suppose with something like the Nagaoka or an AT results will be largely acceptable, if not predictable. Unfortunately I don't have the cash to tinker with exotica, and I certainly wouldn't be opposed to it!
Sound was very nice, providing for a good seat, thats is - far better than typical hifi show fair. I assumed an expensive cart was in place but when all was said and done I was shocked to see a Rega Carbon performing duties (AT95e or 3600?). Anyway, sounded more than fine, no notable deficits like sibilance or noise but perhaps a good clean pressing helped it play nice.
I read over on Audio Science Review that most carts exhibit a fairly similar magnitude of distortion, and more aggressive cuts obviously are more particular of set-up to extract potentially better tracking and so on. Accordingly, I'm considering something like a 33EV or Mp200 next. Perhaps more than good enough for what I want.
Indeed, if you care to take a gander at exotica reviews in Hifi-news, the FR's are...interesting. Tracking capability often very average, sometimes less so. Yes, I accept measurements aren't everything but I suppose with something like the Nagaoka or an AT results will be largely acceptable, if not predictable. Unfortunately I don't have the cash to tinker with exotica, and I certainly wouldn't be opposed to it!
deebster
Half Man Half Biscuit
Good question, James.
From what I've managed to glean over the years, the answer is less related to 'filtering', and more related to 'transference'; or more accurately, signal transference as a result of geometric transference. What has come to be described as tracing distortion doesn't necessarily cause groove damage, more a case of the tip following whatever path it can trace; the deviation from intended signal being a function of tip r being >= groove r.
Specifically, with two undulating groove walls, each positioned at 45º to vertical, and at 90º to one another, any undulations that cannot be fully read by a given tip profile will result in an upward deflection of the stylus/cantilever (aka pinch affect). As any deflection generates an electrical response, what is created by this unintended vertical travel is a 2nd harmonic of the lowest frequency which cannot be directly scanned. This will dominate other 2nd harmonic distortion mechanisms, such as those of overhang/offset misalignment. Unlike anharmonic distortions, 2nd harmonics can sound quite pleasing; old tube amps and dynamic loudspeakers generate lots of them.
For a visual representation, the following plan view graphic, from Namiki Precison Jewel Co. Ltd., not only illustrates pinch affect via diameter/cross-section reduction of the contact patch elevation, but also how the two contact patches become misaligned wrt a 90º bisector of the mean groove travel (the arrows either side), dynamically altering phase in a similar fashion.
I love your posts Craig.
You don't happen to know where I put my 1987 Lloyd Cole & The Commotions T shirt do you?
Good question, James.
From what I've managed to glean over the years, the answer is less related to 'filtering', and more related to 'transference'; or more accurately, signal transference as a result of geometric transference. What has come to be described as tracing distortion doesn't necessarily cause groove damage, more a case of the tip following whatever path it can trace; the deviation from intended signal being a function of tip r being >= groove r.
Specifically, with two undulating groove walls, each positioned at 45º to vertical, and at 90º to one another, any undulations that cannot be fully read by a given tip profile will result in an upward deflection of the stylus/cantilever (aka pinch affect). As any deflection generates an electrical response, what is created by this unintended vertical travel is a 2nd harmonic of the lowest frequency which cannot be directly scanned. This will dominate other 2nd harmonic distortion mechanisms, such as those of overhang/offset misalignment. Unlike anharmonic distortions, 2nd harmonics can sound quite pleasing; old tube amps and dynamic loudspeakers generate lots of them.
For a visual representation, the following plan view graphic, from Namiki Precison Jewel Co. Ltd., not only illustrates pinch affect via diameter/cross-section reduction of the contact patch elevation, but also how the two contact patches become misaligned wrt a 90º bisector of the mean groove travel (the arrows either side), dynamically altering phase in a similar fashion.
I’ve always wondered how manufacturers make something as small as a diamond stylus. Did a search on google for a video. Nothing
wylton
Naim and Mana member
I think that's the good thing though; although I personally prefer MCs, the fact is, that if we fall upon hard times, a cartridge like the Rega Carbon will still sound nice on a good quality turntable/arm combination. I mentioned elsewhere that I have a Carbon sitting in a Stanton ST.150 DD turntable for playing old 7" singles etc. Its mounted in a Rega RB202 at the moment, but it would be interesting to stick a better arm on it at some point.
Arkless Electronics
Trade: Amp design and repairs.
I'm surprised there has been no mention of the Townshend Rock thus far.... a different solution to the whole matter!
It worked. And sounded very good to me.
It worked. And sounded very good to me.
The Carbon (AT-3600L) is crazy good for the money. You can buy them direct from China for less than ten-quid and you even get stainless bolts with it! I buy them in bulk to fit on refurbished turntables.
However, it's not that good. I've tried one on my RP10, which acts like a microscope letting you hear exactly what any cartridge sounds like. The cart does have proper problems at both ends. The bass can get tripped up and out of control on tricky stuff and the treble is similarly limited in talent.
It does however have a big, bold and bouncy sound so if the system isn't revealing the carts shortcomings then great. It's a bargain.
Just an update:
I've been enjoying the way the RP10/K9-conical deals with previously difficult records but over the last few nights I've been playing records that sounded good on the LP12.
In short, I'm missing...nothing. This is a win-win situation. The deck sounds great on good vinyl and is a big improvement on the big chunk of my record collection that the LP12 wasn't very kind to. I know that in theory this conical stylus can't track inner grooves or treble and isn't very detailed but please explain this to my record player as it clearly didn't get the memo. It just sounds..good. Better than anything I've had before.
I'm thinking of trying the elliptical and nude elliptical styluses, they're not that expensive, the MicroLIne doesn't seem very well loved, but if I had to stick with this conical I could do, perfectly happily.
I've been enjoying the way the RP10/K9-conical deals with previously difficult records but over the last few nights I've been playing records that sounded good on the LP12.
In short, I'm missing...nothing. This is a win-win situation. The deck sounds great on good vinyl and is a big improvement on the big chunk of my record collection that the LP12 wasn't very kind to. I know that in theory this conical stylus can't track inner grooves or treble and isn't very detailed but please explain this to my record player as it clearly didn't get the memo. It just sounds..good. Better than anything I've had before.
I'm thinking of trying the elliptical and nude elliptical styluses, they're not that expensive, the MicroLIne doesn't seem very well loved, but if I had to stick with this conical I could do, perfectly happily.
Luca
pfm Member
Please pardon my repetitivity, but I advise you a very cheap test. Try an AT95e or VM95e. If your turntable has a proper set up you will get satisfaction.
Since when my AT95s found place on the shell the other cartridges (VDH and Glider) rest in the box.
However, if the turntable hasn't a solid, natural and armonic bass, no one cartridge can create it out from nothing.
Agreed @Mr Pig, the Carbon is a belter. Certainly good enough to have a room full of people lost in music.
I'm at the stage where I'm wondering if there's a worthwhile trade off in things like tracking error/ stylus life for sheer musicality and enjoyment. Perhaps as set-up is more easily bang on with ellipticals etc too, this means optimum enjoyment of the cart. One doesn't have to search long for folk displeased with 2m Black setup, for example. I wonder how many have bought that cart and dismissed it having never got the best out of it?
I'm at the stage where I'm wondering if there's a worthwhile trade off in things like tracking error/ stylus life for sheer musicality and enjoyment. Perhaps as set-up is more easily bang on with ellipticals etc too, this means optimum enjoyment of the cart. One doesn't have to search long for folk displeased with 2m Black setup, for example. I wonder how many have bought that cart and dismissed it having never got the best out of it?
Stylus life I can't comment on but the tracking error thing is a bit of a mystery to me right now. The conical stylus on the RP10 is better sounding than any MC I've had on my LP12. While I can't say the tracking is better than the best of them, it really doesn't sound any worse?
By contrast the fancy Shibita of the 2M Black was a pain. Perhaps it could have been sorted but I was losing the will to live. I tried three different alignments and even tried moving it tiny amounts and listening to the results. At best, you could still hear it come on and off axis as it crossed the record! That's a first. I've had Shibita styluses before but it wasn't until now I could hear so clearly what was going on.
All very weird.