Cav
pfm Member
All tyres need to be replaced at some time, so no money is saved.
Tyres.
- Thread starter Mullardman
- Start date
SteveG
pfm Member
With a lot of cars these days, including 2 of mine, there isn't a choice about where the new tyres go as the sizes are different on the front than on the rears. I remember Honda used to switch tyres around to even out wear when my car was in for servicing, but most of the cars I've had since then don't have the same size tyres front and rear so it won't have been an option.
Funk
pfm Member
All well and good until your front end grips under hard braking/steering and the rear now doesn't (especially under heavy braking where weight transfer becomes a larger factor) and you end up sideways and out of control.
Cars are designed to crash best head-on; everything at the front is geared around dissipating energy and putting major structures between you and the thing you're in the middle of having an accident with. Anywhere else on the car (especially the sides) are a significantly riskier proposition. To that end, keeping the car straight and under some semblance of control is optimal.
Also whilst I've mentioned aquaplaning, newer tyres will perform better in wet conditions even when NOT aquaplaning thanks to their ability to clear water better. The most desirable trait for a car is stability at the rear. The best way of achieving that is to have the newest tyres on the rear.
The comments made by guest about things like tyre age are not irrelevant but in the grand scheme of things they're not of great importance either.
Tyres are a sore point for me this morning - after having new Pilot Sport 4s fitted on Saturday one succumbed to a pothole last night which was invisible in the dark and wet last night.
Make sure you get a photo of the pothole, we've been compensated for a few pothole breakages.
lordsummit
Moderator
Not long since I hit a huge pothole. Expected the tyre to deflate but no. Thought no more of it till I took the car in for a service, the inside rim of the wheel that hit it was quite badly out of shape. Never expected the wheel to deform and the tyre to survive. Thankfully due to bangernomics the cost was the new tyre it needed anyway and a £30 wheel from a Volvo breaker.
3
35451
Guest
They do actually recommend regular rotation. And that way you get even wear all round, and will most probably replace all 4 tyres at one go. IF you have to put new tyres on due to puncture etc, you should then match them across axles and ideally put those with most tread on rear, with same tread depth on each side (ie implies to replace in pairs) But adopting the recommended rotations, you will ideally replace all 4 at once.
A quick Google shows that most tyre vendors still DO recommend rotation as best practice and for the reasons of even all round wear already mentioned (and dismissed by some here)
Dunlop
https://www.dunlop.eu/en_gb/consumer/learn/rotating-your-tires.html
Michelin
https://www.michelinman.com/tireRotation.html
Michelin owners manual P.14
https://www.michelinman.com/on/dema...e-driving/Owners_Manual_Post_Promise_Plan.pdf
Goodyear
https://www.goodyear.eu/en_gb/consumer/learn/rotating-your-tires.html
Fulda
https://www.fulda.com/fulda_uk_en/a...re/caring-for-your-tires/rotating-your-tires/
Cooper
https://www.coopertires.com.au/media/1401/rotating-your-tyres-extract.pdf
Bridgestone
https://www.bridgestonetire.com/tread-and-trend/tire-talk/tire-rotation
BlackCircles.com (owned by Michelin)
https://www.blackcircles.com/helpcentre/tyre_fitting/tyre-rotation
In fact, apart from some web wonder warriors, the only place that popped up NOT receommending tyre rotation was..... Kwik Fit
https://www.kwik-fit.com/tyres/information/tyre-rotation
Whose advice would you take?
3
35451
Guest
I drove a Caterham R500 shod with Avon CR500s on quite a few track days, some years back, when my employer was schmooozing customers - Castle Coombe, Donnington, Brands and Snetterton - as I recall. Most fun I ever had in a car, and fastest thing I have ever piloted too. Twas awesome. We ran a full Avon slick (forgot name) too when conditions permitted. Nothing stops, turns and grips like it. 4 wheeled motor bike is fitting term.
Wouldn't fancy it on the road though, although not much understeer.
Avon do make decent tyres.
sean99
pfm Member
Understeer is the front losing grip. Oversteer is the rear. If you want the front to lose grip first (which I agree with) then the newer tires should be on the rear.
3
35451
Guest
3
35451
Guest
That's a simple typo you jumped in on there. Possibly ignoring other stuff that provides context
But, as I have also said in same para, that understeer is preferable for most drivers, then dialling out understeer thru putting most tread on front axle, is illogical.
What I have said is that I advocate rotating tyres as does most manufacturers, then this whole argument of brand new rears with part worn fronts becomes a non sequitur, since you replace 4 evenly worn tyres at one time, with 4 new ones. I also clearly state that if there is an incident - puncture etc - then tyres with most tread should go on rear, and in pairs.
What I do not agree with is the notion of only ever replacing tyres in pairs then migrating old tyres to front, since that way you will never get the 2 ends of a car with equal tread and therefore even (or balanced as chassis designer intended) grip and handling characteristics.
Hope that's clear. think I'm done with tyres.
But, as I have also said in same para, that understeer is preferable for most drivers, then dialling out understeer thru putting most tread on front axle, is illogical.
What I have said is that I advocate rotating tyres as does most manufacturers, then this whole argument of brand new rears with part worn fronts becomes a non sequitur, since you replace 4 evenly worn tyres at one time, with 4 new ones. I also clearly state that if there is an incident - puncture etc - then tyres with most tread should go on rear, and in pairs.
What I do not agree with is the notion of only ever replacing tyres in pairs then migrating old tyres to front, since that way you will never get the 2 ends of a car with equal tread and therefore even (or balanced as chassis designer intended) grip and handling characteristics.
Hope that's clear. think I'm done with tyres.
In 30 years or car ownership I have never, ever replaced all 4 tyres at once on a normal road car.
3
35451
Guest
Great. YMMV
I've done it many times. I like 4 new tyres at one time and not mixed brand. I like the gradual drop off of grip all around, and the subsequent injection of new grip all round provided by new rubber.
It's really not uncommon with normal road cars, especially if they are perfomance-orientated, or you want to switch brands etc
3
35451
Guest
Guess you never had a Quattro or AWD.
Many 4WD cars also require all 4 tyres be replaced at one time. This is to keep OEM required consistency in F/R rotational diameter differences as tyres wear and effectively lose diameter. To not do so can compromise AWD control systems as well as damage diffs etc. Audi, amongst others specify what max differences can be. Many AWD vendors suggest having new tyres shaved (like race car tyres) to keep within rotational specs on existing tyres, when all 4 are not replaced.
Ask yourself , would you shave 2 new tyres to fit in with the existing part worns? Or would you rotate and replace all 4 at same time? A few ££s on tyres Vs £2000 on transmission repairs.
Oh and it's not just 'prestige brands'.
Here's a Kia Sportgae who didn't do all 4.
https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/askhj/...-this-has-broken-the-four-wheel-drive-system-
And a Hyndai Tucson.
https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/askhj/...d-to-replace-all-four-tyres-at-the-same-time-
<<This warning is something I repeat to readers at least twice a day. The basic rule for an automatically engaged 4WD system is that all tyres must be the same make and type and must not differ in tread depth by more than 3mm. On a Sportage where front and rear tyres are the same, this can be evened out by swapping the tyres front to back every 10,000 miles.
Indeed.
Many 4WD cars also require all 4 tyres be replaced at one time. This is to keep OEM required consistency in F/R rotational diameter differences as tyres wear and effectively lose diameter. To not do so can compromise AWD control systems as well as damage diffs etc. Audi, amongst others specify what max differences can be. Many AWD vendors suggest having new tyres shaved (like race car tyres) to keep within rotational specs on existing tyres, when all 4 are not replaced.
- Audi As published in their vehicle owner's manual, "rolling radius of all 4 tires must remain the same" or within 4/32-inch of each other in remaining tread depth.
- Porsche Cayenne within 30% of the other tire on the same axle's remaining treadwear.
- Nissan GT-R when replacing less than four (4) tires, each tire continuing in service must have at least 6/32 inch (5 mm) of remaining tread depth.
- Subaru Within 1/4-inch of tire circumference or about 2/32-inch of each other in remaining tread depth.
Ask yourself , would you shave 2 new tyres to fit in with the existing part worns? Or would you rotate and replace all 4 at same time? A few ££s on tyres Vs £2000 on transmission repairs.
Oh and it's not just 'prestige brands'.
Here's a Kia Sportgae who didn't do all 4.
https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/askhj/...-this-has-broken-the-four-wheel-drive-system-
And a Hyndai Tucson.
https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/askhj/...d-to-replace-all-four-tyres-at-the-same-time-
<<This warning is something I repeat to readers at least twice a day. The basic rule for an automatically engaged 4WD system is that all tyres must be the same make and type and must not differ in tread depth by more than 3mm. On a Sportage where front and rear tyres are the same, this can be evened out by swapping the tyres front to back every 10,000 miles.
Indeed.
Ponty
pfm Member
Guess you never had a Quattro or AWD.
Many 4WD cars also require all 4 tyres be replaced at one time. This is to keep OEM required consistency in F/R rotational diameter differences as tyres wear and effectively lose diameter. To not do so can compromise AWD control systems as well as damage diffs etc. Audi, amongst others specify what max differences can be. Many AWD vendors suggest having new tyres shaved (like race car tyres) to keep within rotational specs on existing tyres, when all 4 are not replaced.
More here: https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=18
- Audi As published in their vehicle owner's manual, "rolling radius of all 4 tires must remain the same" or within 4/32-inch of each other in remaining tread depth.
- Porsche Cayenne within 30% of the other tire on the same axle's remaining treadwear.
- Nissan GT-R when replacing less than four (4) tires, each tire continuing in service must have at least 6/32 inch (5 mm) of remaining tread depth.
- Subaru Within 1/4-inch of tire circumference or about 2/32-inch of each other in remaining tread depth.
Ask yourself , would you shave 2 new tyres to fit in with the existing part worns? Or would you rotate and replace all 4 at same time? A few ££s on tyres Vs £2000 on transmission repairs.
Oh and it's not just 'prestige brands'.
Here's a Kia Sportgae who didn't do all 4.
https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/askhj/...-this-has-broken-the-four-wheel-drive-system-
And a Hyndai Tucson.
https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/askhj/...d-to-replace-all-four-tyres-at-the-same-time-
<<This warning is something I repeat to readers at least twice a day. The basic rule for an automatically engaged 4WD system is that all tyres must be the same make and type and must not differ in tread depth by more than 3mm. On a Sportage where front and rear tyres are the same, this can be evened out by swapping the tyres front to back every 10,000 miles.
Indeed.
This is all spot on. For example, people have all sorts of problems on the Freelanders with mis matched tyres (amongst lots of other things!). Winds up the diff and IRD, thousand to fix, even at a non LR dealer. Makes you wonder how many folk buy a used 4 wheel drive car where tyres have been neglected for it to later economically write the vehicle off.
Tony Lockhart
Avoiding Stress, at Every Opportunity
Four wheel drive is a different kettle of fish, obvs.
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35451
Guest
Actually, its not just AWD/4WD. RWD BMWs with auto transmissions can be similarly afflicted if the tyres have mismatched tread depths.
Yank
Bulbous Also Tapered
But most cars already have understeer built into the suspension alignment, and exacerbating it is not necessarily a good thing.
Also, depending on the tire type and age, more tread depth does not always mean more grip.
sean99
pfm Member
I'd look at (putting new tyres on the back) in terms of reducing the possibility of catastrophic oversteer, not in terms of increasing understeer.
I'd say it means more grip when it counts which is when it's wet. Oversteer in a FWD car on dry pavement should be a very rare event (I hope).
martin clark
pinko bodger
It's all so much 'YMMV'
On the last few large RWD cars I've owned, yes, typically about 1.5 pairs of rears to 1 front. Always replaced in axle-pairs, I don't care if one has life left technically - do the pair. In the last 15yrs I've had very, very good service from the better mid-tier providers (Kumho, and esp Falken); and even better from top-rank esp Michelin PS3/PS4s; the slight premium at purchase more than outweighed by both notably-longer-life, and better grip/lower noise than the the (great value!) mid tiers named - right through that longer life. PS4s remain my current default pick for such a use.
My little Fisher fury I can/ have consistently scrubbed through usable life in 3-4K miles regardless, so that gets whole sets everytime, and is entirely worthwhile on that basis, for the things I drive it for. But of course that's the stickiest, softest stuff I can run legally and still get an MOT ... also , at 13" and staggered 185/205 F"R, not a dramatic expense.
On the last few large RWD cars I've owned, yes, typically about 1.5 pairs of rears to 1 front. Always replaced in axle-pairs, I don't care if one has life left technically - do the pair. In the last 15yrs I've had very, very good service from the better mid-tier providers (Kumho, and esp Falken); and even better from top-rank esp Michelin PS3/PS4s; the slight premium at purchase more than outweighed by both notably-longer-life, and better grip/lower noise than the the (great value!) mid tiers named - right through that longer life. PS4s remain my current default pick for such a use.
My little Fisher fury I can/ have consistently scrubbed through usable life in 3-4K miles regardless, so that gets whole sets everytime, and is entirely worthwhile on that basis, for the things I drive it for. But of course that's the stickiest, softest stuff I can run legally and still get an MOT ... also , at 13" and staggered 185/205 F"R, not a dramatic expense.
