Indeed. Hence this "pointless" thread.Labour need to reflect on their many errors, and make some big changes.
Labour’s Remain critics on the other hand played an absolute blinder and have nothing to learn whatsoever. Their strategy of focusing relentlessly on the one force capable of stopping or softening Brexit, rather than those who planned and executed it, has been utterly vindicated. Everyone involved deserves to keep their job and we should continue listening to their wise pronouncements on what everyone is getting wrong and how unexpectedly racist and vindictive the Conservatives are turning out to be.
This isn't wrong but it risks reducing the whole thing to the playing out of eternal laws. Quite particular things happened here that reveal a new and unusually bleak political situation.Tories outmanoeuvred UKIP and made it simple - want Brexit? Vote Tory. It cut across party lines.
Other side of the debate was divided and confusing, and collided head first with party lines, causing disarray. PV rallies didn’t know if they were just for a PV, anti-Tory, pro-Labour or what (if that sounds daft, trust me, I was there). Labour as a movement (ie not just the leadership/official policy, but the various elements of the broad church, including the centrists) was unsure what to do, so despite big figures working with PV (McDonnell, Starmer and Abbott IIRC spoke at the 2nd major march), they couldn’t properly join up. And the Lib Dems eventually came to the view that it was worth letting Brexit through (whilst loudly disagreeing with it) and having a Tory govt in order to ensure Corbyn didn’t win.
Simple vs messy. Simple wins every time.
It's excellent trolling drood. But as you say, good to see some people actually daring to go beyond Well Corbyn Was Awful.Indeed. Hence this "pointless" thread.
I've seen almost no reflection from PV/2ndRef supporters, and PV itself seems to have evanesced, but I don't move in those circles, so I'm generously curious to know if there has been a serious post-mortem. For example, how can a prominent campaign with huge amounts of support in the mainstream media barely shift the Leave/Remain poll in its favour?
In contrast, and contrary to what most people here claim, I've witnessed endless soul-searching on the part of Labour Party members and left-wing commentators (Mason, Bastani, Jeremy Gilbert etc.). Frankly it's hard to square Starmer's commanding lead with any other conclusion.
Anyway, good to see some people here engaging with the question.
Oh FFS not another naval gazing brexit argument thread.
The shit is done, deal with it, move on and when the tories are kicked to the kerb rejoin the EU.
The arguments have been done to death and no new answer is going to miraculously appear now.
I'm usually too high-minded to troll but yeah, there's an element of that here. In fact I've resisted the temptation to start this thread many times since the election, but the fresh outbreak of ACF (all Corbyn's fault) elsewhere on the forum finally pushed me over the edge.
Anyway, since I started the thread, I might as well use it to share this excellent piece:
https://jacobinmag.com/2019/12/remainers-brexit-labour-party-jeremy-corbyn-boris-johnson
Having observed Labour Party member forums since the 2017 near miss, most of the above article rings true. It also confirms my suspicion that some sincere but relatively naive supporters of a second referendum (e.g. EU supergirl) feel let down by the PV bigwigs. But, as I say, I don't move in PV circles, so what do I know?
Excellent article, difficult to argue with anything in there, especially the conclusionI'm usually too high-minded to troll but yeah, there's an element of that here. In fact I've resisted the temptation to start this thread many times since the election, but the fresh outbreak of ACF (all Corbyn's fault) elsewhere on the forum finally pushed me over the edge.
Anyway, since I started the thread, I might as well use it to share this excellent piece:
https://jacobinmag.com/2019/12/remainers-brexit-labour-party-jeremy-corbyn-boris-johnson
Having observed Labour Party member forums since the 2017 near miss, most of the above article rings true. It also confirms my suspicion that some sincere but relatively naive supporters of a second referendum (e.g. EU supergirl) feel let down by the PV bigwigs. But, as I say, I don't move in PV circles, so what do I know?
Toss article, full of inaccuracies and completely glosses over corbyn granting the johnson his election. A corby-hagio whitewash.Excellent article, difficult to argue with anything in there, especially the conclusion
“Labour supporters and the wider British left will need to digest last week’s result properly and draw the right conclusions about what went wrong. There’s plenty of room for self-criticism”.
I thought Johnson was going to put forward some loophole bill to grant an election with a simple majority rather than two-thirds, which the Lib Dems and SNP made it plain they were going to support. It was only then, when the game was obviously lost, that Corbyn caved in rather than appear frightened of an election? I’ve probably got that all wrong, as I will be told very quickly....completely glosses over corbyn granting the johnson his election...
Well, the johnson held no majority to get his bill through, and the Lib Dems and SNP may very well not have been enough or have vacillated. Hardly taking it to the wall. Granting it as an edict without consulting with or gaining the support of your cabinet is monumentally stupid. Turned out well, didn't it?I thought Johnson was going to put forward some loophole bill to grant an election with a simple majority rather than two-thirds, which the Lib Dems and SNP made it plain they were going to support. It was only then, when the game was obviously lost, that Corbyn caved in rather than appear frightened of an election? I’ve probably got that all wrong, as I will be told very quickly.
It’s the ACF that is demonstrably wrongToss article, full of inaccuracies and completely glosses over corbyn granting the johnson his election. A corby-hagio whitewash.
Army Cadet Force?It’s the ACF that is demonstrably wrong
Not moving on = alright if moaning pointlessly makes your day.I will not deal with it or move on.