advertisement


People's Vote Campaign: What Went Wrong?

The completely useless leadership of both Labour (Corbyn) and LibDems (Swindon) meant that PV had no effective parliamentary voice. Thus the campaign never stood a chance of securing a confirmatory referendum.
 
Oh FFS not another naval gazing brexit argument thread.

The shit is done, deal with it, move on and when the tories are kicked to the kerb rejoin the EU.

The arguments have been done to death and no new answer is going to miraculously appear now.
 
Labour need to reflect on their many errors, and make some big changes.

Labour’s Remain critics on the other hand played an absolute blinder and have nothing to learn whatsoever. Their strategy of focusing relentlessly on the one force capable of stopping or softening Brexit, rather than those who planned and executed it, has been utterly vindicated. Everyone involved deserves to keep their job and we should continue listening to their wise pronouncements on what everyone is getting wrong and how unexpectedly racist and vindictive the Conservatives are turning out to be.
Indeed. Hence this "pointless" thread.

I've seen almost no reflection from PV/2ndRef supporters, and PV itself seems to have evanesced, but I don't move in those circles, so I'm genuinely curious to know if there has been a serious post-mortem. For example, how can a prominent campaign with huge amounts of support in the mainstream media barely shift the Leave/Remain poll in its favour?

In contrast, and contrary to what most people here claim, I've witnessed endless soul-searching on the part of Labour Party members and left-wing commentators (Mason, Bastani, Jeremy Gilbert etc.). Frankly it's hard to square Starmer's commanding lead with any other conclusion.

Anyway, good to see some people here engaging with the question.
 
Last edited:
Tories outmanoeuvred UKIP and made it simple - want Brexit? Vote Tory. It cut across party lines.

Other side of the debate was divided and confusing, and collided head first with party lines, causing disarray. PV rallies didn’t know if they were just for a PV, anti-Tory, pro-Labour or what (if that sounds daft, trust me, I was there). Labour as a movement (ie not just the leadership/official policy, but the various elements of the broad church, including the centrists) was unsure what to do, so despite big figures working with PV (McDonnell, Starmer and Abbott IIRC spoke at the 2nd major march), they couldn’t properly join up. And the Lib Dems eventually came to the view that it was worth letting Brexit through (whilst loudly disagreeing with it) and having a Tory govt in order to ensure Corbyn didn’t win.

Simple vs messy. Simple wins every time.
This isn't wrong but it risks reducing the whole thing to the playing out of eternal laws. Quite particular things happened here that reveal a new and unusually bleak political situation.

First of all it isn't just that the Tories outmanoeuvred UKIP: they essentially absorbed them and the Brexit Party. The Conservative party is now modular: a bit of it breaks off at key moments to push for wildly right wing policies and is then re-absorbed at election time having dragged the whole conservative agenda rightwards. I don't think this is new exactly: it's been going on at least since the '70s and NF, but it feels like it's reached its logical conclusion.

Secondly, the right wing press press is now unambiguously a part of the Tory machine, or vice versa. The deployment of the Brexit Party couldn't have worked without the press building up Farage and then benching him at the right moment. It was obviously co-ordinated:

49542498513_0aa9ccd797_b.jpg


More generally, The Times and The Telegraph in particular acted as mouthpieces for Downing Street in way they hadn't quite before. Don;'t get me wrong, the British press has obviously been extremely right wing for some time, but this kind of straightforward clientelism is new.

Thirdly, British liberals/centrists/whatever they're calling themselves have demonstrated that they prefer barbarism to socialism, or to put it less dramatically, they're prepared to accept big economic hits as well as panto levels of racism if the alternative is them not being in charge.

49491711007_07c43f2ffe_b.jpg


Also they are extremely bad at politics, even the bit of it - PR - that their critics accuse them of focusing on to the exclusion of everything else. These are the only sensible lessons to learn from the story of People's Vote, which was an absolute clown's car crash of a political operation from beginning to ignominious end.

Anyway I think all of this is quite important because it means that any strategy that depends on winning over the media or building a broad progressive alliance is pretty much doomed to fail, at least until the personnel involved in British liberalism are replaced.
 
Indeed. Hence this "pointless" thread.

I've seen almost no reflection from PV/2ndRef supporters, and PV itself seems to have evanesced, but I don't move in those circles, so I'm generously curious to know if there has been a serious post-mortem. For example, how can a prominent campaign with huge amounts of support in the mainstream media barely shift the Leave/Remain poll in its favour?

In contrast, and contrary to what most people here claim, I've witnessed endless soul-searching on the part of Labour Party members and left-wing commentators (Mason, Bastani, Jeremy Gilbert etc.). Frankly it's hard to square Starmer's commanding lead with any other conclusion.

Anyway, good to see some people here engaging with the question.
It's excellent trolling drood. But as you say, good to see some people actually daring to go beyond Well Corbyn Was Awful.
 
I'm usually too high-minded to troll but yeah, there's an element of that here. In fact I've resisted the temptation to start this thread many times since the election, but the fresh outbreak of ACF (all Corbyn's fault) elsewhere on the forum finally pushed me over the edge.

Anyway, since I started the thread, I might as well use it to share this excellent piece:

https://jacobinmag.com/2019/12/remainers-brexit-labour-party-jeremy-corbyn-boris-johnson

Having observed Labour Party member forums since the 2017 near miss, most of the above article rings true. It also confirms my suspicion that some sincere but relatively naive supporters of a second referendum (e.g. EU supergirl) feel let down by the PV bigwigs. But, as I say, I don't move in PV circles, so what do I know?
 
Oh FFS not another naval gazing brexit argument thread.
The shit is done, deal with it, move on and when the tories are kicked to the kerb rejoin the EU.
The arguments have been done to death and no new answer is going to miraculously appear now.

Obviously right in a legal sense.
But in terms of the effect the shit is not done. It hasn't even really started yet. It will start in earnest in 2021 and continue for years.
I will not deal with it or move on.
There is no rejoining the EU in the next 25 years, if ever. And certainly not on the same, advantageous, terms.
 
I'm usually too high-minded to troll but yeah, there's an element of that here. In fact I've resisted the temptation to start this thread many times since the election, but the fresh outbreak of ACF (all Corbyn's fault) elsewhere on the forum finally pushed me over the edge.

Anyway, since I started the thread, I might as well use it to share this excellent piece:

https://jacobinmag.com/2019/12/remainers-brexit-labour-party-jeremy-corbyn-boris-johnson

Having observed Labour Party member forums since the 2017 near miss, most of the above article rings true. It also confirms my suspicion that some sincere but relatively naive supporters of a second referendum (e.g. EU supergirl) feel let down by the PV bigwigs. But, as I say, I don't move in PV circles, so what do I know?

So in short, your position on any of this is unchanged but you expect everyone else's to have?

I understand the frustration at what you call ACF but there were several here unhappy with Corbyn but still voting Labour who thought we would struggle to win, especially having granted Johnson an election of his choosing. Others told us that Corbyn was an asset and that we were being unnecessarily cautious and pessimistic.

Now we are being told that RLB with a backing of Momentum and McCluskey is the obviousl leadership candidate for those wanting to win an election. Well don't expect everyone to agree with that. It gets a tad galling when left leaning contributors blame 'sensibles' and 'moderates' (anyone who doesn't agree with them) who stuck with voting Labour when so many of the "heartlands" were prepared to vote Farage or Johnson if they couldn't have exactly what they wanted.
 
The people were bored of Brexit, last thing they wanted was another referendum. It seems bizarre that many were trumpeting the Corbyn long game just a matter of months ago, all we can hope is that Brexit goes better than we thought. I would be delighted to be wrong on this. We will never know whether a different leader would have achieved a better outcome.
 
Well, the PV movement was responsible for the two biggest ever demos in the UK. And gave me and millions others the chance to personally say, I was there, I was on the right side of history.
Corbyn was personally responsible for two out of three of the brexit enablers, and labour generally for the other one, inexplicably voting to enable a far right tory policy.
It is all very well trying to foist blame on the Lib Dems and the SNP for the most catastrophic of the corbyn blunders, but really as they didn't command the numbers, that doesn't wash.
So, the single person who kicked the props out from under the PV movement, was corbyn, who after three years plus of serial ineptness managed to muster an effective and focused way to enable brexit and lose the election.Yes, Mr Johnson, you can have your election. And the country too. Anything else you'd like? Yes, of course (turns away and begins lowering trousers).
 
As I keep on saying we should also not overlook the fact that Farage and Banks bought some marginals for Johnson. I’m sure Corbyn wouldn’t have ever won, but the sheer extent of the wipeout would be very different had the Brexit Party not found a way of providing a ‘/dev/null’ for some racist/nationalist Labour voters who would have never transferred their votes to the Tories.
 
I'm usually too high-minded to troll but yeah, there's an element of that here. In fact I've resisted the temptation to start this thread many times since the election, but the fresh outbreak of ACF (all Corbyn's fault) elsewhere on the forum finally pushed me over the edge.

Anyway, since I started the thread, I might as well use it to share this excellent piece:

https://jacobinmag.com/2019/12/remainers-brexit-labour-party-jeremy-corbyn-boris-johnson

Having observed Labour Party member forums since the 2017 near miss, most of the above article rings true. It also confirms my suspicion that some sincere but relatively naive supporters of a second referendum (e.g. EU supergirl) feel let down by the PV bigwigs. But, as I say, I don't move in PV circles, so what do I know?
Excellent article, difficult to argue with anything in there, especially the conclusion

“Labour supporters and the wider British left will need to digest last week’s result properly and draw the right conclusions about what went wrong. There’s plenty of room for self-criticism”.​
 
Excellent article, difficult to argue with anything in there, especially the conclusion

“Labour supporters and the wider British left will need to digest last week’s result properly and draw the right conclusions about what went wrong. There’s plenty of room for self-criticism”.​
Toss article, full of inaccuracies and completely glosses over corbyn granting the johnson his election. A corby-hagio whitewash.
 
...completely glosses over corbyn granting the johnson his election...
I thought Johnson was going to put forward some loophole bill to grant an election with a simple majority rather than two-thirds, which the Lib Dems and SNP made it plain they were going to support. It was only then, when the game was obviously lost, that Corbyn caved in rather than appear frightened of an election? I’ve probably got that all wrong, as I will be told very quickly.
 
I thought Johnson was going to put forward some loophole bill to grant an election with a simple majority rather than two-thirds, which the Lib Dems and SNP made it plain they were going to support. It was only then, when the game was obviously lost, that Corbyn caved in rather than appear frightened of an election? I’ve probably got that all wrong, as I will be told very quickly.
Well, the johnson held no majority to get his bill through, and the Lib Dems and SNP may very well not have been enough or have vacillated. Hardly taking it to the wall. Granting it as an edict without consulting with or gaining the support of your cabinet is monumentally stupid. Turned out well, didn't it?
Also, the johnson bill could have had amendments. Threw that away too.
 
I also meant to share this video of People's Vote dude Mike Galsworthy on NovaraMedia's YT channel:


It's good to see discussion between opposing camps on this important issue that does not degenerate into abuse.
 
I'm hoping for the destitution of the nation as will likely happen and that then even the fcukwits who voted leave will be clamouring to get back in....

TonyL's posts nailed it basically though.
 


advertisement


Back
Top