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Guitar talk: acoustic, bass, classical, twelve string? You name it! Pt II

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Thing is though that very late 70s, early 80s guitars I always think of as clean. Indeed the post-punk thing was so "this is new!" to me as a teenager because the guitars went clean and funky instead of heavy and distorted. And, of course, the other classic 80s amp was the JC-120 -- also solid-state and super clean.

So does that mean they didn't really think about tone? And just wanted a clean guitar and volume so it stood out in the mix and suited that more off-beaty, upstrokey stlye compared to the chuggy power chord punks?
 
PS Do you know these people in Manchester? Seem very well respected and when I read about their pickups they always sound very much for people who grew up musically in the late 70s and 80s. They even have a set called the Alt-88s!

https://www.creamery-pickups.co.uk/
 
Thing is though that very late 70s, early 80s guitars I always think of as clean. Indeed the post-punk thing was so "this is new!" to me as a teenager because the guitars went clean and funky instead of heavy and distorted. And, of course, the other classic 80s amp was the JC-120 -- also solid-state and super clean.

So does that mean they didn't really think about tone? And just wanted a clean guitar and volume so it stood out in the mix and suited that more off-beaty, upstrokey stlye compared to the chuggy power chord punks?

I suspect it is just one of those convergences of attitude and technology that define music. There is no doubt the ‘70s solid state amps sounded entirely different to the Fender, Vox, Marshall and Hiwatt stuff that preceded it, but that coincided with a musical movement that wanted to reject the past and be ‘not rock/not-blues’. As such that technology just fitted new wave just as the early analog synths fitted Tangerine Dream, the 808 and early samplers built the hip-hop scene etc. These amps were unlike modern solid state ones, you just couldn’t get anything approaching a distorted Tweed, Vox or Marshall type sound out of them even if they had an ‘overdrive’ circuit or ‘lead’ channel. They just had a bright clean sound and decent spring reverb, that was really all that was useful. I view the Roland Jazz Chorus as something rather different, plus they were very expensive so the folk who bought them actively wanted the stereo chorus sound.

I’d heard of Creamery, maybe Ben Crowe (Crimson) mentioned them, I can’t recall, though had no idea they were Mancs! I’ve never been a guitar modder at all so have never even thought about pickups. I’ve always bought second hand and realised that if you hack a guitar about you never add value to it, so have always just bought and sold stuff until I get something I really like as a whole (which with the Yam and Shergold basses I have, the rest is just investment stuff I don’t care about). I’ve never changed a pickup for myself, only fixed wiring botches on other people’s guitars. It is a fascinating subject though and I’ve heard a few comments from folk who say vintage pickups is 95% of the vintage guitar sound.


This Rig Rundown with Ben Harper and his guitarist states just that, and they have astonishing kit! I heard Rhett Shull saying much the same, in fact he thinks the amp is more important than the guitar. I guess for the sort of thing he does it is. The whole thing is fascinating, e.g. the contrast between say Andy Gill and Ben Harper when it comes to kit. Totally different tools to make totally different music.
 
Talking about pickups Mick Here’s blog this week is great and very interesting:


Sounds like he now has three really superb sounding Strats to my ears, though we’ll have to wait until the next episode to find out what he really thinks. It certainly seems that he’s closed the gap between the 62, ‘Blue’ and the black AVRI very significantly with them all sounding just a little different rather than better/worse. Someone really needs to teach him how to solder properly - if he’d tinned the back of the pot first he’d have found it way, way easier and got a much better joint!

PS Andy Gill up next in my watch-list!
 
...Blimey, Strat Plus & Logic Mainstage into a couple of Peaveys! Very different to early GoF.
 
Les Paul tones...

I've had a bit of a love-hate thing going on with the various hum-bucker equipped guitars in the house here. Despite endless twiddling with the vast array of tone and effects options on my modelling amp (Fender Mustang 4) - I don't ever seem to be able to get a decent 'clean' sound. Anybody any pointers on how this guy manages to get this clean a sound from his Les Paul ?

He says that it's been rewired to give a coil-split / single coil setup arrangement, and that he feeds it through what he calls a 'clean channel' (presumably as low a gain setting as he can get) - but I'm wondering what else you'd have to do to get that almost Strat-like tone out of an LP:


 
I've had a bit of a love-hate thing going on with the various hum-bucker equipped guitars in the house here. Despite endless twiddling with the vast array of tone and effects options on my modelling amp (Fender Mustang 4) - I don't ever seem to be able to get a decent 'clean' sound. Anybody any pointers on how this guy manages to get this clean a sound from his Les Paul ?

I’ve not watched the vid yet, but if he’s got a coil tap that certainly explains a more Fender sound. For a clean standard Les Paul sound don’t forget to play with the volume and tone knobs on the guitar! Far too many folk assume things are best with everything set to ‘10’, try backing off to 6 or 7 and actually blend the pickups, maybe go even lower if the amp is crunching up. Humbuckers are a lot louder than single coils. I find I can get pretty nice jazzy clean tones out of Fat Lester that way.
 

I’ve just watched this remarkably geeky and surprisingly interesting history of The Beatles guitar amplifiers. It kind of works as a history of Vox too, plus there’s a Leak TL12.1 and a Quad II in there!
 
Les Paul tones...

I've had a bit of a love-hate thing going on with the various hum-bucker equipped guitars in the house here. Despite endless twiddling with the vast array of tone and effects options on my modelling amp (Fender Mustang 4) - I don't ever seem to be able to get a decent 'clean' sound. Anybody any pointers on how this guy manages to get this clean a sound from his Les Paul ?

He says that it's been rewired to give a coil-split / single coil setup arrangement, and that he feeds it through what he calls a 'clean channel' (presumably as low a gain setting as he can get) - but I'm wondering what else you'd have to do to get that almost Strat-like tone out of an LP:

Great lesson videos on his channel. I usually have the guitar volume down as low as 4 or 5 into a low gain setting - It shouldn't need a dedicated clean channel unless the amp is really gained up or the pups are hot. I don't have coil splits these days.
 
Cool, will watch later!

Edit: watched and it is amazing! Proper old-school electronic music creation!
 
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Given the advance of technology it quite amazing that no-one has ever managed to better this piece of kit for doing it what it does. No wonder they fetch an absolute fortune in decent working order.

BTW, the reason you never see that guy's headstock is cos ..It's a Tokia not a Gibson and coil splits do not sound remotely like a Strat apart from maybe some of the more exotic PRS pups. The classic Lester clean tone is "THE" sound of mellow Jazz noodling and it's either the neck pup alone or both combined, you don't really bother with clean on the bridge pup of a Lester.
 
Just watched the "New Pickups for the Blues Strat" video and some thoughts.

If ever there was a firm that is the very doyen of "end time capitalism" it's modern Fender. Consider this, you are in effect paying someone 3 grand and northwards to spend hours making something that is perfect when the guitar you actually want was made by a total "lash up and make do operation" run by an eccentric mostly populated by eccentric staff. Leo Fender's company was notorious for is budgetary bodging of production runs and he would happily chuck random parts into both guitars and amps to fulfil orders. Tolerances on pots values, by electronic standards, were literally tolerant of anything that came close meaning that, any given pre CBS Strat is almost a random collection of parts solely defined by the shape of the instrument.

This wasn't some slick corporate operation, it was the unwanted child of a bit of a genius and its workforce as pointed out, were often as eccentric as their boss. Someone I worked with for almost decade, their main guitar was a 63 pre CBS Strat and I always thought it "looked different" to modern Strats and not simply because of the smaller headstock. This was confirmed to me when the luthier who built my Strat's body pointed out "Oh modern pickguards wont fit, you have to fettle them, it's only a couple of mm's difference however, it makes a big difference on the bottom curve and horn of a Strat.

Listening to those three Strats, the pre CBS sounds blatantly like it's somehow "bandwidth limited" and that sounds exactly as does my old colleagues pre CBS Strat. The other two have way more top end and loads more bottom end, the pre CBS is all midrange and that's why it sounds so damned good. That leads us into a huge chicken and the egg conundrum that, unless we invent time travel, we are never going to truly understand. The contemporaneous recording systems we all hear those Strats record on, were in themselves, pretty much all midrange. That means we have no real "control group" whereby we can say. "Oh those pups always sounded like that"; or "They've quite obviously mellowed as has the guitar over the intervening years".


That is the essence of rock n roll, whereby, making things technically better doesn't necessarily make them right. I have several lovely guitars and yet, my very first proper guitar an old 70s Japanese double cut copy made from boxwood, that weighs literally sod all, has a bolt on neck and P90 Dog Ears that are so microphonic you could record vocals through them, is still the best lead guitar I own and sustains like something Nigel Tufnel would wet himself over. For years I thought this was just some random collection that happens to sound right and then, about a year ago, I watched a video with Guthrie Govan and surprise surprise, his signature guitars are made from boxwood with a thin maple cap. That is, one of the world's leading guitarists who could spec anything he wants , chooses a "tone wood" most purists would turn their nose up as "cheap tat". Go figure eh?
 
BTW, the reason you never see that guy's headstock is cos ..It's a Tokia not a Gibson and coil splits do not sound remotely like a Strat apart from maybe some of the more exotic PRS pups. The classic Lester clean tone is "THE" sound of mellow Jazz noodling and it's either the neck pup alone or both combined, you don't really bother with clean on the bridge pup of a Lester.

Which guitar is the Tokai - not the blue one in the Mu-Tron vid surely ?
 
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