Meanwhile, on John Bull's Other Island...

[tones]

...as my countryman George Bernard Shaw famously called it, a political earthquake has taken place:

https://www.irishtimes.com/election...d-from-the-campaign-and-the-results-1.4170381

Sinn Féin a major party, who'd have thought it? A lot of credit to Mary Lou McDonald, who comes with no paramilitary connections (despite all his vigorous denials, there is no doubt that Gerry Adams sat on the IRA Army Council, and was no doubt the salesman for his "bullet and ballot" concept). Still, with lots of uncomfortable people behind the scenes (and perhaps even pulling the strings?) can the Shinners be trusted? In short, can Sinn Féin become a normal political party and divorce itself completely from its paramilitary past?

It was once - the original, founded by Arthur Griffith before the First World War, was purely a party devoted to the idea of an Irish Republic and had no paramilitary connections (this was to come with the first lot of "Troubles" (1916-1921).

Already some of the smaller Irish political left-leaning parties are uncomfortable with a coalition that would exclude Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael. Interesting times ahead...

 

[Tony L]

In fairness they are no worse than the DUP, who have a similarly bloody past if one brushes the surface veneer of respectability away. From my perspective they both represent ugly fundamentalist religious ideology and hard-line nationalism, two of my least favourite things, though if anything SF looks to be trying rather harder to move forwards.

 

[tones]

In fairness they are no worse than the DUP, who have a similarly bloody past if one brushes the surface veneer of respectability away. From my perspective they both represent ugly fundamentalist religious ideology and hard-line nationalism, two of my least favourite things, though if anything SF looks to be trying rather harder to move forwards.

There I would have to disagree with you, Tony. I am no fan of the DUP, but, to the best of my knowledge, the DUP was never directly associated with any paramilitary group (unlike the Progressive Unionist Party, which was associated with both the UVF and the Red Hand Commandos). This is not to say that its rhetoric wasn't conducive to encouraging, shall we say, more impressionable members of the Unionist public taking matters into their own hands, or that individual members of the DUP were not guilty of crimes.

On the other hand, the Shinners were always the political wing of the IRA and apologists for the IRA's misdeeds, constantly trotting out the "collateral damage in wartime" excuse. This was especially since the Official-Provo split in the North in the 1970s, with its substantial body count as they murdered each other. As a result, the "provisional " Sinn Féin became what we now know as Sinn Féin and the "official" Sinn Féin became the Workers Party of Ireland, or something like that (the Official Shinners had become quite Marxist in philosophy, while the Provos were essentially green Nazis).

The major difference is that Sinn Féin is left-wing, but relatively progressive. It has shed most of its pro-Catholic roots and is in favour of such things as abortion and gay rights, whereas the right-wing DUP wants to return Northern Ireland to the Stone Age, or perhaps even the Pleistocene. The DUP thus remains true to the fundamentalist Paisleyism from which it sprang.

 

[-alan-]

As regards the links with the paramilitaries, I'm not close to it at all, but I don't believe its seen as a big issue by the younger voters. With the younger crop of both politicians they are fielding and the electorate they are targeting, I don't think SF need or wish to perpetuate the links with the players and politics of 30 years ago now. They are also as Tones rightly points out much more progressive and liberal in terms of supporting minority issues and rights, and broadening the wedge between Church and State than the DUP, but in truth probably also moreso than either of the the two mainstream parties here in the South as well.

A lot of younger people from the professional classes are feeling excluded from things like the property market due to the ridiculously high house-price to salaries ratios, and suffering from a worsening quality of life than their parents had/have. The sense I get here is the large vote for the SF lot was driven by a growing sense of dissatisfaction with the other two major parties - a combination of a growing left alliance and a bit of a protest vote. The two traditional power players - Fine Fail and Fine Gael - are seen as having sat back and done nothing for the younger generation, so for many of the younger voters, it's payback time.

SF have effectively assumed the role that would have been filled traditionally by the likes of the Labour Parties in Ireland and the UK, providing a viable left alternative to the other two centre-right parties. It was inevitable that it was going to come - and it finally has.

 

[Tony L]

I am no fan of the DUP, but, to the best of my knowledge, the DUP was never directly associated with any paramilitary group (unlike the Progressive Unionist Party, which was associated with both the UVF and the Red Hand Commandos).

The recent BBC multi-part series on the ‘troubles’ dug up a lot of connections between the DUP and UVF etc. It was a remarkable series and left no doubt that no side nor political party held any moral high ground. The same goes for the UK military and intelligence services who had infiltrated all sides and were actually directly involved in murders etc. Just an awful situation on all sides.

 

[stevec67]

Interesting times indeed. The fact that after the results had been announced they chose to sing a rebel song that glorifies the IRA suggests that the path to putting down the rifle may be a bumpy one.

 

[TheDecameron]

Will the party’s remarkable election advances speed the reunification case and how will it affect Irish negotiations with Johnson’s government over the status of N.I’s customs border? I can’t see them tolerating any politically convenient ( on Johnson’s part) switch back a border on the island, magically invisible or otherwise.

 

[stevec67]

Will the party’s remarkable election advances speed the reunification case and how will it affect Irish negotiations with Johnson’s government over the status of N.I’s customs border? I can’t see them tolerating any politically convenient ( on Johnson’s part) switch back a border on the island, magically invisible or otherwise.

The very last thing Sinn Fein of all people will support is a border in Ireland. God forbid even Boris the dickhead tries anything so stupid.

 

[cooky1257]

Interesting times indeed. I've often wondered 'what if ?' in regard to power sharing in the north ie without the dual ballot bullet would it have happened eventually anyway or as the DUP still seem to be stuck in 1969 perhaps no surrender would have won the day? A quick poll of my relatives in the Republic tends to support an age related explanation i.e. My uncle Frank(70 +) said he'd "never vote for the murdering ba*tards" while his son Frank (43)has little or no such historical prejudices of their association with paramilitaries. I can see a united Ireland in 20 years....

 

[-alan-]

^ There is definitely a different mindset between the yoof and the older crowd for sure. I'd say the sentiments are the other way round to what you suggest though cooky - few of the under 30s would relish the prospect of either:

(a) the thought of large numbers of rabid fundamentalist Northerners being given the vote here in what has become perhaps one of the most liberal minded countries in Europe and
(b) having to pay massively increased taxes to fund the privilege of being given ownership of a nearasdamnit bankrupt region

Times have changed.

 

[Seanm]

If nothing else it demonstrates that it’s not enough to have a sensible, capable, statesmanlike man in a nice suit lead your party if the politics aren’t there. Hope Starmer fans are watching.

 

[cooky1257]

^ There is definitely a different mindset between the yoof and the older crowd for sure. I'd say the sentiments are the other way round to what you suggest though cooky - few of the under 30s would relish the prospect of either:

(a) the thought of large numbers of rabid fundamentalist Northerners being given the vote here in what has become perhaps one of the most liberal minded countries in Europe and
(b) having to pay massively increased taxes to fund the privilege of being given ownership of a nearasdamnit bankrupt region

Times have changed.

(b) For sure ;-)
(a)Possibly, not something that I'd considered or was mentioned by the Cork Franks(there's also Limerick Franks and a couple of Athlone Franks and 2 Frances's in Edgeworthstown!)but really made me laugh.

 

[-alan-]

Sounds like your Franks may be more from the rural side perhaps. There is also a big urban rural divide when it comes to attitudes here. Folk from the country would probably have a much more similar attitude in life to our Northern Brethren than all of the Woke millennials round the East Coast for sure.

 

[wiresandmore]

The Sinn Fein surge here has little (effectively nothing) to do with a Unification Vote - it's a left-wing change which is clearly a call from the electorate to fix major structural issues in Ireland around Housing, Health, Childcare costs, Pensions etc - very Corbyn-esque stuff.

 

[tonerei]

If nothing else it demonstrates that it’s not enough to have a sensible, capable, statesmanlike man in a nice suit lead your party if the politics aren’t there. Hope Starmer fans are watching.

Ah cheap shot Sean, Leo is an excellent Taoiseach damned by the history of his party.

FG are running a surplus, close to full employment. Really competent Minister for Finance. But FG always manage to shoot themselves in the foot by not tackling the legal system when given the opportunity by the Troika, Too lenient tax breaks to vulture funds to get house building going again. No focus on efficiency in the Health service, water charges/water meters fiasco, insurance costs/payouts and housing crisis. I would go further and say they have always been arrogant and out of touch. This might be a wake up call.

In some ways a lot of people want SF in with their magical proposals. 100,000 houses for 6.5B!! Popcorn time, Dessie Ellis Minister for Justice, Aengus O Snodaigh as Minister for Health, Pearse Doherty for Finance.

This is a weird election one of the SF candidates went on holidays during the campaign. Most of the candidates are unknowns, some only getting 300 votes in the recent council elections and now getting 12K first preferences.
We have a large cohort of our population who think everything should be available for free. Free pensions etc etc. SF tap in to that. In the unlikely event they form a government I would expect the wheels to fall off very quickly.

 

[wiresandmore]

Ah cheap shot Sean, Leo is an excellent Taoiseach damned by the history of his party.

FG are running a surplus, close to full employment. Really competent Minister for Finance. But FG always manage to shoot themselves in the foot by not tackling the legal system when given the opportunity by the Troika, Too lenient tax breaks to vulture funds to get house building going again. No focus on efficiency in the Health service, water charges/water meters fiasco, insurance costs/payouts and housing crisis. I would go further and say they have always been arrogant and out of touch. This might be a wake up call.

In some ways a lot of people want SF in with their magical proposals. 100,000 houses for 6.5B!! Popcorn time, Dessie Ellis Minister for Justice, Aengus O Snodaigh as Minister for Health, Pearse Doherty for Finance.

This is a weird election one of the SF candidates went on holidays during the campaign. Most of the candidates are unknowns, some only getting 300 votes in the recent council elections and now getting 12K first preferences.
We have a large cohort of our population who think everything should be available for free. Free pensions etc etc. SF tap in to that. In the unlikely event they form a government I would expect the wheels to fall off very quickly.

Agree with most of this - in particular, this election was won online - and because the Irish media doesn't really "see" this, they are missing out on all the Facebook stuff which was strongly aligned with the "vote left transfer left" mantra

FG do need the wake-up call. They just went too slowly and weren't bold enough.

I don't think huge swathes think it should all be free - I think they just see nothing changing fast enough with the established parties - and SF had a smart, digestable message

 

[tonerei]

Huge swathes for free is an exaggeration I agree but there is definitely a large grouping dependent on social welfare. A lot of people do not see this unless they happen to engage with it in their every day life. An example, my mam is applying for a grant that looks like it will come through at some point to cover the cost of outsulation of her house, new heating system and new windows. She has already got the free bathroom and free house rewire. My father died 3yrs ago but ran his own small business all his working life. No pensions provided for just the state pension. Go dig deep and get the figures for rent allowance and the amounts some families get in supports. It is scary in some cases the net support would require a salary of nearly 100k. On the other side I see people barely surviving with 4 children not receiving any support.

BTW there are lots of very comfortable people at the other end of the spectrum also.

 

[Arkless Electronics]

Good luck to SF and Eire in getting a socialist gov and eventually, soon, a united country.

 

[tones]

Good luck to SF and Eire in getting a socialist gov and eventually, soon, a united country.

"Eventually", probably, "soon", no. Too many agin' up north. The big problem with Sinn Féin is that they meet the classic definition of a fanatic, a person with both feet firmly planted in the air. They have simply taken a united Ireland as a self-evident given, and have never tried to persuade their Unionist counterparts of the advantages of reunification. As a result, they have a lot of work to do. They have, in effect, fouled their own nest by their intransigent, holier-than-thou behaviour.

 

[Arkless Electronics]

What a po faced, devoid of joy, Cromwellian, ascetic, creationist, bigoted pack of.... It takes some doing to make Hitler and Stalin look like the chuckle brothers but the DUP manage it! They need to chill out, get some Guinness down their necks and learn the meaning of the craic!

Quite how both sides manage to keep an argument over different brands of the same imaginary sky wizard going for 400 years is mind boggling, while I'm at it.... if they're all so besotted with religion then what about the ten commandments? "Love thy neighbour" and "Thou shalt not kill" spring to mind...

And if I were a bull dog I'd be suing over the constant comparisons with Arlene's face!