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Gas central heating

Thorn

Thorn

pfm Member
The climate minister advises that the government is threatening to ban gas central heating boilers. Is there any alternative that is as flexible, as simple to install in older houses and not significantly more expensive?
 
That fits all that? No.

Bear in mind that to change only involves changing a boiler, nothing else significant. Changing some natural gas boilers to LPG would be very easy but LPG is at best expensive, at worst eye-wateringly expensive.

Changing to electricity isn't as expensive as it seems as electric heating is 100% efficient - all the heat goes into the system, whereas a gas boiler is only 60-80% efficient, depending on lots of things. So you cannot simply compare kWhr prices for electricity and gas. Electricity will be more expensive than mains gas for as long as politics and the public demand it to be so.
 
Michael J said:
What do you think LPG is?
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In the UK natural gas is generally taken to mean mains gas - methane, whereas LPG is generally taken to mean propane, but can be butane. To change from one to the other means a jet/burner change.

That is what I think. You presumably think differently?
 
Presumably if gas is to be banned, then so will oil fired systems.
Hopefully not too soon as I've just forked out for a new oil tank (we have no gas, and as Vinny says, LPG can be horribly expensive.
 
There is talk of adding Hydrogen into mains gas to reduce the carbon related emissions. Some are speculating on using hydrogen only in the gas mains, however given that the gas pipes use a string type seal that can leak when the string dries out then I think many miles of gas pipe will have to be replaced with a hydrogen proof pipe.
 
Of course they won’t be banning gas boilers.
Just installation of boilers after a certain date.
You won’t be forced to change your current boiler.
 
Derek Wright said:
There is talk of adding Hydrogen into mains gas to reduce the carbon related emissions. Some are speculating on using hydrogen only in the gas mains, however given that the gas pipes use a string type seal that can leak when the string dries out then I think many miles of gas pipe will have to be replaced with a hydrogen proof pipe.
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Coal gas the stuff we had before natural gas and for which the original piping infrastructure was designed was I believe 50% Hydrogen.

Cheers,

DV
 
Apologies - to me "gas" means mains.

Town/coal gas was a lot of hydrogen, but back then pipes were steel. No doubt the diffusion rate of hydrogen through the now normal plastic will be hugely higher than methane, just by virtue of molecular size.

https://composite-analytica.com/messages/489.html

I can't see any logic in banning just one hydrocarbon - "gas" - either, So that leaves electricity, mains or otherwise, renewables - basically wood, and heat pumps.
 
Talk of Hydrogen in the gas lines - there is I understand a trial taking place right now (Hull area I think) where they are testing injection of a percentage of Hydrogen into the existing gas mains. There are no changes ot be made to equipment - but they want to check for any unforeseen issues with pipes, and other kit in the network. The are chosen is apparently well 'contained' in distribution terms.
 
As mentioned here a short while ago, much of the hydrogen currently used is from oil, I strongly suspect as a by-product though. If hydrogen was aimed as a mains/piped fuel, there would have to be humungous investment in electrolysis and getting the hydrogen into the network, far more so than if it was used as transport fuel.
 
Vinny said:
Changing to electricity isn't as expensive as it seems as electric heating is 100% efficient - all the heat goes into the system, whereas a gas boiler is only 60-80% efficient, depending on lots of things. So you cannot simply compare kWhr prices for electricity and gas. Electricity will be more expensive than mains gas for as long as politics and the public demand it to be so.
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Electric heating is only 100% efficient at the point of use.
But as an energy supply, it is, has long been, about 3x the price per unit delivered, and that reflects all kinds of things: inc upstream inefficiencies in raw supply, and the overhead costs, subsidies, and inefficiencies of the delivery network (including the wholesale gaming of when to sell the power you generate into a short term market measured in minutes!) . While our UK baseline now remains c 50% CCGT - which alone maxes out at around 48% efficacy in conversion of the same natural gas to electricity as a giant, very-mechanically-efficient, prime-mover source.

...

Now we are also at a point that measuring housing design as the EPC and BRUKL does to date by C02 loading means that we are seeing a large resurgence in electric heating source only for all domestic demand - heat, hot water, cooking -(because the UK Grid has decarbonised at an incredible rate over last 10yrs or so) and it''s counted a 'good thing' - leaving the homeowners/ esp new renters ( a LOT of this is in PRS rental schemes by huge landlords*) paying 2-3x what they might have budgeted on energy per month based on domestic heat / hotwater via Mains gas. 'Oh it's low carbon, therefore total energy use and energy cost-in-use is less important', Well, no that wasn't ever the case - for either considerations.

tl;dr:
This stuff requires a far more nuanced discussion than generally happens.

PS Proposed England & Wales AppDoc Part L (Energy efficiency of new buildings) 2020 consultation closed on Friday night. It will actually make things objectively worse in several senses, short- and long-term, than 2013 regs; & was met with lots of opposition as a result... That's a thing for a.n.other rant.

* like Legal & General, amongst others - it means minimal CapEx on the build, and no annual gascheck service liability per apartment as landlord; all the upscaled running cost issues becomes the Tenant's problem in a Victorian 'eff em if they don't like it, we'll rent to someone else' manner.

I've yet to see a convincing explanation otherwise - when in other commercial/institutional schemes we are installing CHP units that run to generate a small amount of electrical power off the gas main, when we can use all the thermal output (heating/district-heating / scheme domestic hot water also; and have detailed models to justify that approach in each case, on not just C02 but total CapEx+ lifecycle costings too. (No, I can't share examples... wish I could)

As I said - the whole approach requires nuanced & considered discussion.
 
Bob McC said:
Of course they won’t be banning gas boilers.
Just installation of boilers after a certain date.
You won’t be forced to change your current boiler.
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I hope you take your time on that decision. We always end up following on from whatever the UK does very shortly after.
 
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