advertisement


Bookshelf speakers for naim nait 3 & rel quake

I had a Nait 3 for many years, and enjoyed it very much. It started out driving Mission Cyrus 780, which were nice enough in a smallish room but struggled a bit when I moved to a bigger place. I then tried Rega ELA mkII, which were a move upwards but still lacking something for me. I then found a pair of Naim Intro II about 10 years ago, and they were keepers. I found they matched the Nait very well. They can be had for a good price too.

Sorry, I just read that you are after bookshelf speakers...
 
I’ve used the shortest possible length of speaker wire, about 1.2m. Why would it be better to use longer?
 
You will find the technical explanation on Naim website faq and in many threads.

Don't go shorter than 3.5 mtr is recommended.
Your very short lenght could damage the amp. It would be silly to risk that.

You don't need to buy expensive cable, something like Linn K20/naca4 similar cable talk, Chord Co several choice, Witchhat amo.

Longer lenght perform better ime, I had 5-7 mtr on my early Naits and they seem to gel better, more organic.
 
Last edited:
I bought epos es11s but they sound worse than AE aegis evo 1s so will sell epos es11s and am still looking for better sounding speakers. Very disappointed.
 
When you are using a sub, you need a bookshelf with a flat bass, rather than a smile response. Ideally a sealed cabinet as the integration is easier
 
I bought epos es11s but they sound worse than AE aegis evo 1s so will sell epos es11s and am still looking for better sounding speakers. Very disappointed.

What don't you like about the Epos ES11? I had some and thought they were amazing near field, so I tried them in my living room and they were terrible. All I can remember was the slow, boomy bass.

If you can find some JPW P1, AP2 or AP3 they have very tight bass because of the sealed box design (will be easier to integrate with a sub) and better mids than most smaller speakers. Even the treble is nicely detailed. I've heard people say that Snell K are slightly better but I haven't heard them. You can still buy the midbass driver and tweeters brand new - http://www.puresound.info/id2.html - https://willys-hifi.com/collections/dome-tweeters/products/peerless-d19td05-08-tweeter
 
There is general muddyness, a lack of clarity. Tried without the sub first and the difference between the es11 and evo1 was obvious immediately. I was expecting the opposite with es11 ie Less bass but more clarity and definition. Maybe someone has switched the tweeters and or mid/bass speakers for something cheaper but they look as they should so maybe not? My room is about 5mx5m. My evo1s sound pretty good and integrate well with the rel quake. I’ve seen jpw speakers for £65 locally, can’t remember which model though. Got the es11s for £122 on eBay so hopefully won’t lose too much reselling them.
 
Properly fed, functioning ES11 do not exhibit 'general muddyness' or 'lack of clarity'. Have a read of this thread, especially the part about baffle tightening (easy does it).

P.S. 1.2m of anything is asking for trouble with NAIT3.
 
Taking advice given here I’ve put 3.2m cable on each side (I didn’t have quite enough for 3.5m). I don’t think this is an issue though because I’ve had 0.5m cable on each side for years while having the speakers on their side under the tv and never had any problems. If there was any difference between 1.2 and 3.2 it was so slight that it doesn’t matter but if anything maybe better with 1.2? I’ve left the 3.2m on. Having the speakers about 2m apart sounds much better than 0.5m apart but I’ve had to rearrange all the furniture in the room to make that possible because of my kitchen door being in the middle of the wall.

Has anyone on here heard both AE aegis evo 1 and epos es11? If I post photos of es11s would that reveal anything? Not read the baffling thing yet but will do.
 
Or what about these on eBay? item: 283701463485 description
Great set of epos speakers which are fully working but with some defects. The tweeter covers are missing and as a result one tweeter has been pushed in (but it still works fine). 4 of the rubber grommets on the front have also been lost. And there is some perishing and cracking to the rubber surrounds on the mid/bass drivers. The cabinets also have wear and tear and age related marks.

Despite all these issues these are in full working order, in fact they still sound phenomenal and even better than many modern speakers. They were highly acclaimed speakers from epos that were never really bettered. They were once a go to speaker to use with naim but even if you put them on some high end gear these just get better and better, as they provided high end sound, and not forgetting are very good for just enjoying music.

Any opinions about defects?
You need to get the battered ones for next to nothing or not at all. You'll never resell them, unless again it's for tenners.
 
Just bought some battered es11’s for 50 quid, will give them a try and see what the fuss is about, not heard them for over 20 years. And do a refurbishing thread in diy section sometime soon, since there’s a bit of spare rosewood knocking about
 
I avoided the battered looking es11s and also the ones that had tweeter pushed in, perishing on drivers etc. So far as I know the ones I’ve bought are working as they should but they sound bad in comparison to AE aegis ones. I’ll take the es11s to local hifi shop if they are willing to give an opinion. Why will I never resell them? How much would you expect to pay? Given the fact that I think they don’t sound good and am saying so here, I wouldn’t expect to sell them to anyone reading this, unless perhaps if the local hifi shop verify they are as they should be.
 
@Bob793

Just curious, 3.2m of which cable exactly?

To be clear, this isn't about which cable sounds better, more a case of which cable allows the amplifier to perform within its intended operating parameters. In worst case scenarios - too high capacitance combined with too low inductance - the stability of the amplifier is threatened. If nothing else, running nearer to the oscillation threshold is likely to give less than stellar performance and possibly cause premature failure.

Naim NACA4 (and Linn K20):
  • Capacitance - 16pF/m
  • Inductance - 0.93µH/m
Naim NACA5:
  • Capacitance - 16pF/m
  • Inductance - 1µH/m
Electrically, there really isn't anything between the two (three) above, however, at a recommended minimum of 3.5m, classic Naim requires a minimum of 56pF capacitance and 3.25µH inductance per lead. As alternative, twisted 3.5m pairs of RS 56/0.3mm (strands/strand dia.) 4.0mm2 (12ga.) single core hookup wire with 5 twists/m provides a similar electrical spec as 3.5m of NACA4 (the latter being the same 56/0.3mm 4mm2 copper with the web spacer providing increased inductance vs. the twists).

As mention upthread, there are cables from other makers that may offer close to NACA electrical specification, however, they typically do not list such, and one should know these values in order to adjust the length of these such that they approximate the 56pF/3.25-3.5µH Naim recommend as minimum.

For example, long before investing in Naim cable, I ran QED 79 Strand with the following specs:
  • Capacitance - 58pF/m
  • Inductance - 0.66µH/m
Discounting the capacitance, which isn't considered high, the inductance of 0.66µH/m works out to a minimum of 5m of QED 79 being needed to electrically approximate the inductance of 3.5m of NACA4.

From Naim:
"Naim power amplifiers do not have extra inductance networks in the output. Naim prefer the more elegant solution of allowing the speaker cable to provide the correct inductance and capacitance. To do so, a minimum of 3.5 metres per channel of NACA4 or NACA5 cable is required – although the optimum length is around 5-10 metres with a maximum recommended length of 20 metres."
 
Further to the above, I've modelled an Excel calculator to determine the optimum minimum and maximum lengths of any loudspeaker cable of known electrical parameters for use with classic Naim amplifiers; with the main assumptions being as follows:
  • For minimum lengths, matching Naim's inductance minimum takes priority (i.e. NACA5 @ 1.0µH/m (rounded up from .95µH/m) = 3.5µH @ 3.5m).
  • For maximum lengths, matching Naim's parallel capacitance maximum takes priority (i.e. NACA4/5 @ 16pF/m = 320pF @ 20m).
  • Until someone with greater knowledge gives a good reason otherwise, loop resistance has been left out of the equation, that is, other than as a differential factor calculation.
Interestingly, in the case of QED 79 Strand, the minimum length calculates to 5.3m with the maximum at 5.5m(!); the latter due to parallel capacitance reaching that of the specified 20m maximum of NACA4/5. My calculation of 5m minimum in the previous post was in relation to NACA4 (@ 0.93µH/m).

If anyone would care to list their cable's loop inductance, parallel capacitance, and length, I'll run them through the spreadsheet and let you know how they compare electrically to Naim's.
 
here’s one of the speaker cables I’ve used without any problems for 10 years with my naim nait 3. It might be linn cable because I bought it as 2x6.5m with linn kan mk1s and the naim nait 3. I cut up one 6.5m cable to make shorter lengths after using the full 2x6.5m for years before. I don’t recommend anyone else do the same. I’d forgotten about naims recommendations. I’m not concerned about speaker cable at all as it makes so little difference what length it is to the sound and my amp has worked just fine with all the lengths I’ve used. Generally speaking I’d try to keep the length as short as possible but if the nait3 has been designed for longer cable I accept the manufacturer recommendation (and yours). I’ve also not had any problems integrating the rel quake despite being warned off getting a sub when I had the Kans. The epos es11s sound like a cheap speaker, that’s the problem I have. It may be that they are es11 boxes with cheaper parts or broken parts inside. Whatever the case, I’ve arranged to return them and if all goes well I’ll only lose the return postage. Reluctant to try another pair of es11s or indeed any second hand speakers now so might just enjoy my AE aegis ones which do sound pretty good. Still have the feeling it could sound better with a “real” speaker upgrade though.
 
Photos have to be uploaded to a photo sharing site and then linked to from here using the URL of the UL'd photo. (i.e. the URL is copied from the photo sharing site and pasted into the Image dialog box here).
 
I’ve heard Quad 11ls and compared them with the evo 1s and whilst they sounded better, I didn’t think the difference was enough to justify the extra cash at the time

These are a good pick IMO. I've found they work well with Naim amps despite the apparent mismatch (flat vs round earth if you see what I mean). High quality stands recommended. Easily available on eBay for £150 - £200.

Tim
 
Your experience with the s/h ES11's shows the risks associated with buying based on reviews/recommendations which may not suit your own ears or room set up. Also, as you have alluded to, there is a risk that the item could be faulty or not operating to spec. On that basis I'd be tempted to cart your amp and speakers to your nearest dealer and have a listen to some new (or 'pre-loved' if they stock any) alternatives to get a feel of what works for you. A good dealer would probably also let you try any that tempt you at home too.
 


advertisement


Back
Top