Vast Brexit thread merge part VI

[russel]

The USA is one country and Detroit is a city in that country.

It’s really not an essential in order to do trade and that is all that is needed, it’s just a part of the EU project and is doomed to failure, imo.

If you are running a corner shop you can do it with local labour, if you are doing anything hi tech you need world wide recruitment, not being able to access European workers because of lack of free movement will act as a brake on the UKs ability to compete in the hi tech sector, what are you planning to export? cheese?, jam?

 

[jay]

what are you planning to export? cheese?, jam?

Ignorance?

 

[TheDecameron]

We will find out in December whether the electorate agree with their MPs broken promises, that is how it is going to work.

Burn them at the stake.

 

[TheDecameron]

If you are running a corner shop you can do it with local labour, if you are doing anything hi tech you need world wide recruitment, not being able to access European workers because of lack of free movement will act as a brake on the UKs ability to compete in the hi tech sector, what are you planning to export? cheese?, jam?

Same with their fantastical claims to train thousands of British born doctors to plug the enormous nhs manpower gap. It’s B.S

 

[TheDecameron]

Ignorance?

Ignorance is zero tariff.

 

[jay]

Ignorance is zero tariff.

To be fair we have a huge deficit with the US.

 

[DonQuixote99]

I have a huge deficit with the local food chain. They buy hardly anything from me.

 

[Colin Barron]

This only makes sense if you take a large, rich nation view and ignore everyone else. You are effectively asking for access to other people's markets for nothing in return.

The 'nothing in return' is free access to our market, from memory we export £120 billion pa and import £170 billion pa of goods.

 

[Swamp Thing]

Same with their fantastical claims to train thousands of British born doctors to plug the enormous nhs manpower gap. It’s B.S

Surely they need to be English born - just in case Scotland decide to do one, NI get swapped for a trade deal and Wales join the greater Patagonian trade area.

Also, in order to be Conservative and Brexit party acceptable it would be better if they "did not smell of curry" - if you can crack my code.

 

[eternumviti]

Yes. Specifically an ideology of the EU. Which is kind of the point.

You don't seem to be grasping the possibility that this particular ideology might be well past it's sell by date.

We hear much talk of it being better to reform the EU from the inside than to be outside and have no influence at all. Your post seems to entirely refute this theory. Your take seems not just to be 'it is ideology, therefore immovable', it also seems to be 'it is EU ideology, therefore it is good and cannot be questioned'.

And you wonder why so many people wanted out!

 

[wacko]

Burn them at the stake.

Those with more foresight than I said that post-Referendum England had become an unpleasant place with xenophobia well and truly strutting around. At the time I thought it can't be that bad.
They were right and I was wrong. It is even more depressing than the economic sh1tstorm that is coming.

 

[wacko]

You don't seem to be grasping the possibility that this particular ideology might be well past it's sell by date.

We hear much talk of it being better to reform the EU from the inside than to be outside and have no influence at all. Your post seems to entirely refute this theory. Your take seems not just to be 'it is ideology, therefore immovable', it also seems to be 'it is EU ideology, therefore it is good and cannot be questioned'.

And you wonder why so many people wanted out!

There is a worldwide major change to employment conditions coming down the track with AI and robotics that will make the controversy over zero hours etc look minor. Far better the reduction in working hours/days in the UK is coordinated to whatever degree possible with similar countries behind a tariff wall, and within the largest market in the world, than in a race to the bottom.
Environmental issues can also only be addressed on a continental scale with tariff protection against those unwilling or unable to legislate for environmental protection and the higher costs that involves.
Large scale illegal immigration ditto.
Everything you love about Europe depends to some degree on the success of the EU in meeting such challenges over the next 30 years.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

There is a worldwide major change to employment conditions coming down the track with AI and robotics that will make the controversy over zero hours etc look minor. Far better the reduction in working hours/days in the UK is coordinated to whatever degree possible with similar countries behind a tariff wall, and within the largest market in the world than in a race to the bottom.

Indeed. Zero-hours contracts are not inherently bad, and they can work for many people who want or need flexibility or scalability in their work, but the way they allow some employers to exploit staff is deplorable. So they've got a bad rap, and understandably so.

So when I see AI and automation coming, I ask myself how should it be dealt with. The forward-thinking are looking at reducing the working week to 4, or even 3, days as a response to this, using the boost in productivity to maintain earnings while improving work-life balance. But you can bet that Tory post-Brexit Britain would just be using it as a way to grind down the masses in that race to the bottom, just as they did with zero hours contracts..

 

[Colin Barron]

Burn them at the stake.

In an unrepresentative democracy, sacking at feedback time is all that is needed.

 

[Colin Barron]

Indeed. Zero-hours contracts are not inherently bad, and they can work for many people who want or need flexibility or scalability in their work, but the way they allow some employers to exploit staff is deplorable. So they've got a bad rap, and understandably so.

So when I see AI and automation coming, I ask myself how should it be dealt with. The forward-thinking are looking at reducing the working week to 4, or even 3, days as a response to this, using the boost in productivity to maintain earnings while improving work-life balance. But you can bet that Tory post-Brexit Britain would just be using it as a way to grind down the masses in that race to the bottom, just as they did with zero hours contracts..

In the real world when AI is developed and safe, many lorry drivers and white van man for example will disappear. So there we have it we don't make the products, shops are disappearing so much less labour required via internet purchases, and we will end up where we don't need labour to distribute the products.

 

[matthewr]

You don't seem to be grasping the possibility that this particular ideology might be well past it's sell by date.

We hear much talk of it being better to reform the EU from the inside than to be outside and have no influence at all. Your post seems to entirely refute this theory. Your take seems not just to be 'it is ideology, therefore immovable', it also seems to be 'it is EU ideology, therefore it is good and cannot be questioned'.

And you wonder why so many people wanted out!

As ever you conflate half truths to suggest a straw man that is unrecognisable from my words or my intent. </shrug>

 

[tuga]

You don't seem to be grasping the possibility that this particular ideology might be well past it's sell by date.

We hear much talk of it being better to reform the EU from the inside than to be outside and have no influence at all. Your post seems to entirely refute this theory. Your take seems not just to be 'it is ideology, therefore immovable', it also seems to be 'it is EU ideology, therefore it is good and cannot be questioned'.

And you wonder why so many people wanted out!

17.4 million. We know that.

 

[eternumviti]

I said that the four freedoms is an ideology, and a shibboleth, to which you replied;

Yes. Specifically an ideology of the EU. Which is kind of the point.

As ever you conflate half truths to suggest a straw man that is unrecognisable from my words or my intent. </shrug>

So what half truths, and what conflation?

 

[TheDecameron]

There is a worldwide major change to employment conditions coming down the track with AI and robotics that will make the controversy over zero hours etc look minor. Far better the reduction in working hours/days in the UK is coordinated to whatever degree possible with similar countries behind a tariff wall, and within the largest market in the world than in a race to the bottom.
Environmental issues can also only be addressed on a continental scale with tariff protection against those unwilling or unable to legislate for environmental protection and the higher costs that involves.
Large scale illegal immigration ditto.
Everything you love about Europe depends to some degree on the success of the EU in meeting such challenges over the next 30 years.

Very much this. The world is settling out into a handful large economic/ geoplolitical/ security blocks and the EU is one of them. To throw away our membership at a stroke because we think we are still a global player is the utmost folly. Just like believing in the ‘Special Relationship’.

 

[matthewr]

I said that the four freedoms is an ideology, and a shibboleth, to which you replied;

So what half truths, and what conflation?

I agreed that the four freedoms is the ideology of the EU and this is why it's unreasonable for us to ask them to change it -- which is essentially Munchau's point about asking a golf club to give up golf. You then conflated this with the widely accepted view that the EU is in need of reform (which is true, but not really the point here) so that you could suggest something I clearly wasn't suggesting.