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I have seen the Light. Is it too late to change my view on Brexit?

Well done Steve. I’m in exactly the same position as you. Brexit has been very illuminating for me and now I understand what the Tory party are really about. I’m never going to vote for those scumbags again. My vote will be used tactically where there is the best chance of removing our Tory mp. I might even consider voting brexit on the grounds that they are unlikely to have any chance of sharing power.

My gut feeling is that this is going to be a very dirty election with Boris making at least one major gaffe. Mystic Stemcor predicts a hung parliament and ultimately a second referendum which will vote remain. Then the real politics starts.....
 
It’s not ‘really’ a general election though is it.... it’s a Brexit referendum vote in disguise, orchestrated itself by the EU.
 
At one time I was thinking of starting a thread to ask if anyone had changed their mind because of what they had read on PFM. I'd be interested to know...

I've just come back from a family birthday meal (not my side of the family) and when someone mentioned Brexit, three working class (and lower) ladies said "GET IT DONE". I'd had a few and basically repeated pretty much what i've learnt from here (Brainwashing by the media, What would happen if we had an US style health system, The fact that Boris is a known bulls**er, and the reason why the RICH media are against Jeremy Corbyn) and they agreed with me surpisingly. It could be that they were agreeing to save having and argument, but regardless of that, it is worrying when people will vote against their own interests because that's what everyone they know is saying (it's highly unlikely they'd follow politics, so it must be influence from partners or friends/work colleagues).
 
Rug Doc said:
It’s not ‘really’ a general election though is it.... it’s a Brexit referendum vote in disguise, orchestrated itself by the EU.
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Not sure of the logic there. EU agreed withdrawal agreements with two Tory leaders .They couldn't get it through parliament.
I listened to Anne Widdymadone on Irish radio today. Ivan Yates should have baited her but people really need to start asking questions. Listening to her rabbit on about liking the EU but not wanting EU law.
People need to ask them what laws not just accept their boorish ramble rousing rhetoric.

Good to see people able to change their minds. I wonder how many remainers have changed their minds?
Sadly I think BJ will have his majority at the end of this process. Please god I am very wrong.
 
fatmarley said:
At one time I was thinking of starting a thread to ask if anyone had changed their mind because of what they had read on PFM. I'd be interested to know...

I've just come back from a family birthday meal (not my side of the family) and when someone mentioned Brexit, three working class (and lower) ladies said "GET IT DONE". I'd had a few and basically repeated pretty much what i've learnt from here (Brainwashing by the media, What would happen if we had an US style health system, The fact that Boris is a known bulls**er, and the reason why the RICH media are against Jeremy Corbyn) and they agreed with me surpisingly. It could be that they were agreeing to save having and argument, but regardless of that, it is worrying when people will vote against their own interests because that's what everyone they know is saying (it's highly unlikely they'd follow politics, so it must be influence from partners or friends/work colleagues).
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i think that many voters minds will be easily swayed with clever campaigns, I saw my father the other day, 79 years old, he was a solid leaver, and now he’s changed from leave to remain. I too have changed my mind and would also vote differently now.

It is not going to be a pretty election, it’s going to be grim and then leave us in limbo (again) until the new year, with then just 30 days to deliver our answer to the EU.
 
I can't see what politics has to do with Brexit or those wishing to remain, as the vote to leave was spread throughout both the Labour and Conservative parties. There were probably those who voted without any affiliation to any party.

There are many pros and cons both for and against, and each argument holds its own against any other. It's simply opinion, based upon facts, whimsy, gut feeling or insight. About the only difference here is the devil we know and the devil we don't. However, even this cannot offer any prescience to what the situation will be like in, say, two years' time.
 
Fat M raises an interesting point.

My mother was born a few years before WW2, shot at by the Nazis and met Churchill in the 50’s. She’s seen a few things. However, she didn’t have a good education and has never been able to comprehend complex arguments/positions although mentally she is just the same as she was 40 years ago. However........... she told me a few weeks ago that she likes Farage because he went to Dulwich college (it’s about a mile away from where she grew up) and likes his demeanour / on your side schtick.

There are probably millions of people out there like my Mum who are not interested in an in-depth analysis and are more interested in the superficial (hey, that sounds just like Boris !).
 
tonerei said:
Not sure of the logic there. EU agreed withdrawal agreements with two Tory leaders .They couldn't get it through parliament.
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The EU agreed withdrawal agreements that they knew parliament wouldn’t be able to pass... The public would remain divided, but on top of this, cleverly putting the blame on our own Governments inability to get things done, which creates further confusion with the original ref vote. Hence the absolute shitestorm we’re in now. I think the EU are leaning back at their desks with their arms behind their heads and feet up, waiting for the shit to REALLY hit the fan.
 
Rug Doc said:
I saw my father the other day, 79 years old and now he’s changed
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As I'm the same age, I wonder at his reasons for changing, considering he was so committed. Surely not the hoo-ha in the HoC we've seen this last year, as the fundamentals of choice haven't changed, that I know.
 
Well said Steve, everyone has the right to change their mind, either way.

Leaving was always going to be tough in my view. What was promised in the referendum was clearly not deliverable and hasn’t been delivered in any meaningful way. We were always going to be trapped between the promises made and very real economic impact likely to happen from exiting the Single Market.
 
This whole sorry episode hasn't brought any fresh voting options for me. I will vote for whoever has the best chance of beating the Tory which sadly will be difficult on our patch. The fact that both main parties arrive at this election with pro-Brexit leadership and 'consultants' just as a majority to Remain is now a polling more consistently will make it worse. There is every chance that by the time it arrives, even more people won't want it and these people will see no clear main party opposition to it. How depressing.
 
The thread illustrates the only way to resolve this is a referendum based on the real Brexit vs remain. They’re too scared because they know they’d lose it this time and by more than 52/48 pc not least because of the substantial shift in voter demographics in four years.
 
Mike Reed said:
I can't see what politics has to do with Brexit or those wishing to remain, as the vote to leave was spread throughout both the Labour and Conservative parties. There were probably those who voted without any affiliation to any party.

There are many pros and cons both for and against, and each argument holds its own against any other. It's simply opinion, based upon facts, whimsy, gut feeling or insight. About the only difference here is the devil we know and the devil we don't. However, even this cannot offer any prescience to what the situation will be like in, say, two years' time.
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I think for most that is still the case however as with most things in our political situation today brexit has been positioned now as good vs evil by the some of the left and right.
Brexit = Tory brexit (obviously evil )
Brexit = trade deal with USA. (USA being a capitalist country I presume)
Brexit = loss of workers right
Brexit = chlorinated chicken (not allowed to mention bendy bananas though)
Brexit = NHS privatised by multi conglomerate international bio division USA companies

If you look at the polls over last six months moderate brexit party voters have gone back to Tory and most mid/mid left who want to remain have gone to lib dem leaving I suspect a more extreme labour core and brexit core with centre right and left occupied by Tory and lib dem.
 
TheDecameron said:
The thread illustrates the only way to resolve this is a referendum based on the real Brexit vs remain. They’re too scared because they know they’d lose it this time and by more than 52/48 pc not least because of the substantial shift in voter demographics in four years.
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I think it would be closer than many realise. The just get it done message seems to be being heard sadly. I visit a lot of SME businesses and they are all saying that the uncertainty is their biggest issue so getting out and on with it would be better than another few years dithering. Not my view, but there you go.

Personally I don't think the GE will solve anything, I don't see it as a clear referendum on Brexit as it isn't, there is no simple pro-Brexit/no Brexit option as it's all tied up in party politics. I have said for over a year now we need a second referendum with two clear options that can be implemented straight away. If Johnson's deal is the best he can get then it should be that versus remain. That is what he should be doing, not having a popularity contest. Parliament is an embarrassment to the UK right now and this sham of a GE instead of trying to get the deal through parliament or just doing the sensible thing and having a second referendum is utterly pathetic.

Kudos to Steve T, the OP here, for having the balls to fess up and admit he has changed his stance. My best mate is in exactly the same position, he voted Leave assuming we'd get a sensible deal with the EU, but now would rather remain as ironically all the bickering has made him realise we had a pretty good deal with the EU and would vote as such in a referendum.
 
TheDecameron said:
The thread illustrates the only way to resolve this is a referendum based on the real Brexit vs remain. They’re too scared because they know they’d lose it this time and by more than 52/48 pc not least because of the substantial shift in voter demographics in four years.
Click to expand...
I suspect those that are reading will be encouraged by the UK's resilient economy. Uncertainty supposedly tanks economies. And we have not had so much uncertainty since WW2.

I suspect those that are not reading no longer give a shit.

That being said, I could not possibly say which side will win. I am intrigued. Bring it on.
 
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