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placebo and its relation to 'hearing better'

Rockmeister

pfm Member
This is from a study of medical placebo testing and looks at the way Placebos work in medicine, how they work and the circumstances that support their effectiveness.

"For years, a placebo effect was considered a sign of failure. A placebo is used in clinical trials to test the effectiveness of treatments and is most often used in drug studies. For instance, people in one group get the tested drug, while the others receive a fake drug, or placebo, that they think is the real thing. This way, the researchers can measure if the drug works by comparing how both groups react. If they both have the same reaction — improvement or not — the drug is deemed not to work.

More recently, however, experts have concluded that reacting to a placebo is not proof that a certain treatment doesn't work, but rather that another, non-pharmacological mechanism may be present.

How placebos work is still not quite understood, but it involves a complex neurobiological reaction that includes everything from increases in feel-good neurotransmitters, like endorphins and dopamine, to greater activity in certain brain regions linked to moods, emotional reactions, and self-awareness. All of it can have therapeutic benefit. "The placebo effect is a way for your brain to tell the body what it needs to feel better," says Kaptchuk.

But placebos are not all about releasing brainpower. You also need the ritual of treatment. "When you look at these studies that compare drugs with placebos, there is the entire environmental and ritual factor at work," says Kaptchuk. "You have to go to a clinic at certain times and be examined by medical professionals in white coats. You receive all kinds of exotic pills and undergo strange procedures. All this can have a profound impact on how the body perceives symptoms because you feel you are getting attention and care." My italics.

And so to HiFi. Is the ritual present? Yes. We have read the adverts, considered the opinion of engineers, read approving ratings and visited a show or a dealer where the 'expert' has approved our choice(s). So now we are primed to go. IF we can be bothered, we now move to 'testing', which, as one simple post here shows is just swapping from cable to cable with no attempt made to give 'no change' a chance. Everything in plain site, all those shiny new cables which we are pretty certain will make a change, just as we expect our pill to stop the headache, and so Bingo! There are the changes we expected.

As mentioned above, some of these changes are simply impossible (with a nod to open minded Scientists everywhere who will remind me that the purpose of investigation is to prove that what we used to know is now wrong, so one day maybe we will discover a reason) so an Ethernet cable should not, for example, make any difference at all and yet, apparently some do hear changes quite clearly.

Shortly I am hoping to post a cables opinion poll to see what the PFM hearers and non hearers balance is, just for fun, but before that I thought it interesting to consider the above. At the very least, we should all give that some consideration. It IS possible, according to what is admittedly quite new and incomplete research, but regardless, it is possible that Science is right. There can be and are no differences between ehternet cables of the same construction, and mains must also be in this cataegory . If that is true, then we must consider that the brain is making us hear what we want to hear.

Penultimate point: 1 other thing that I am concerned about. I think it is possible for any cable to sound 'different' if an engineer deliberately constructs it to perform 'badly', by which I mean, to colour the sound in some way. I have no links for that statement, but recall some very 'interesting cable deconstructions in the 90's that revealed components which had no place in any properly engineered construction.

And finally ofc, as posted before, if positive effects can be caused by Placebo, then surely so can negative ones be generated. In HiFi terms then, it must be possible to refuse to hear actual changes if ones belief in their non existence is strong enough?
 
Brave posting...

Why?
It is merely a restatement of observations of controlled trails, albeit the trials had nothing whatsoever to do with HiFi. The problems you have with HifI is sample size, controls and blind/double blind trials.
 
The ignorance of audiophiles is at times difficult to comprehend. There is an area of scientific study called psychoacoustics that has existed to some extent since the ancient Greeks. It is not recent. Why people may perceive different sounds when the ear is stimulated by the same physical sound has been widely studied and is widely understood. It involves more than placebo because perceiving sound involves the brain using input from all the senses and what it has learnt in the past both consciously and unconsciously.

This knowledge has existed since long before the audiophile phenomenon entered the mainstream of home audio in the late 70s requiring it to break away and isolate itself from mainstream scientific knowledge and technical performance in order to function (so long as audiophiles waited to be spoon fed nonsense from within this isolated world and didn't access mainstream scientific knowledge). If there was even the slightest hint of something new and interesting vast numbers of scientific researchers from all over the world would be all over audiophile cables and similar nonsense in order to win Nobel prizes and become very rich and famous for discovering a hitherto unknown and unsuspected scientific phenomenon. Normally things not quite fitting together indicates the existence of undiscovered or unconfirmed phenomena and it generates vast amounts of scientific interest and activity (e.g. Higgs bosons, string theory,...). The total absence of such interest apart from the occasional humorous article is not without significance.
 
Perhaps it is more elliptical than circular.

Good observation on human nature, off putting to the subjective mind set, bloody science. We should as a forum encompass the full range of human beliefs/POV.

I hope we are not expected to say nothing if Another says I heard this when one had done the same comparison and not heard a jot.
 
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Yes of course, any belief is respectable, as long as they don’t harm other people, or empty their wallet for that matter.
 
Why does the brain refer to itself as the brain? And why does the brain think it has a brain? The last time your brain said, “My brain hurts,” it did just that.

Quite honestly, if it’s this crap at self identification it’s probably equally crap at all sort of things.

Joe
 
This is from a study of medical placebo testing and looks at the way Placebos work in medicine, how they work and the circumstances that support their effectiveness.

And so to HiFi. …
I am not disputing what you argue. But I would add that I observe that people have many different ways of enjoying this hobby. If they are pleased by changing cables and hearing a difference, however badly controlled the test in a scientific sense then why should they not enjoy and discuss the hobby that way? But some posts here seem highly dismissive of people who enjoy doing this. And they seem to demand that people conduct and discuss their hobby in a very specific way, intolerant of anything else. And that intolerance is naturally, if unfortunately, reciprocated.

For me, I have come to understand and accept that what I hear is undoubtedly influenced by matters other than just the audio signal. Maybe other people think their hearing is not subject to the normal human adaptability and variability. Paid reviewers and bloggers in particular seem to be vastly over-confident of their abilities - but that's part of establishing guru status and getting income from advertisers.

For me it has become clear that the difference between sound in two different concert halls is bigger than anything I may or may not have heard from the uncontrolled tweaks I tried decades ago, however "night and day" the differences continue to be perceived by others. So I don't pursue a "one true audio illusion" because for me there just isn't one. So, the tweaking part of the hobby has long been of very low priority. But it's clear that others do pursue a particular perceived sound and tweaking is part of doing that.

I do intensely dislike the rubbish that is touted as scientific fact in marketing a lot of modern HiFi (or isn't it High End now) and justifying its high cost. It's a pity to me that many people take it as truth without asking questions. But marketing works and I am sure it influences how people hear what is promoted. There's so much nonsense in professional reviews that for me seeking anything of genuine use is almost futile and they need to be consumed mainly for entertainment while being very sceptical of anything marketed as fact.
 
The ignorance of audiophiles is at times difficult to comprehend. There is an area of scientific study called psychoacoustics that has existed to some extent since ...........................................

I would suggest that that is just saying that if you do hear a difference, it could easily be unique to you, or at least shared by less than everyone else. If so, why labour the point.

As for placebos being a con or whatever, a very recent study showed that any effect can be real - a trial told people that they were receiving a placebo but they got better anyway, nothing at all to with perception.
 
failure. A placebo is used in clinical trials to test the effectiveness of treatments and is most often used in drug studies. For instance, people in one group get the tested drug, while the others receive a fake drug, or placebo, that they think is the real thing

If I may be allowed an important technical correction, people receiving placebo do not think it is the real thing. It is very important that both the “placebo” and “active” groups are fully aware that they could be on EITHER active or placebo. That sounds picky, even anal, but it is an important distinction in proper drug studies.

I would also add that in the interminable discussions about cables and so on, the major effect is many and various flavours of unconscious bias which are almost impossible to fully understand and an absolute bugger for researchers like me to minimise.
 
"why should they not enjoy and discuss the hobby that way?": for the same reason that people should never be encouraged to talk about the myths of religion.
 
Where should this placebo effect starts, where ends?
If someone who bought a very expensive stereo system and connect them with powerleads from the discounter, because he/she/it could not hear a difference
to much more expensive cables, why he/she/it bought an expensive stereo system?
Because a expensive one has to be better? More weight? Finer front finish?
Normally a cheap one will do the job also? Maybe MP3 in 96kHz is enough then?
Not logical, not consequent!
And don‘t tell me, 230V comes in and out, with every powerlead.
 
I don't want to argue specific cable cases here, there are, as pointed out, thousands of those. This post was simply to direct a little attention to some of the reasons why those who don't hear, might be right. I would never ever claim to understand the fuller research in this or other areas such as hg's psychoacoustics (in which hg, you are right, I am ignorant, although in my defence I suspect I may not be alone. It's quite a specialist area of research isn't it)?
As to 'please leave us alone to spend our money and hear our HiFi as we wish', OFC!
I'm not lecturing I'm offering a book opened at page one. If you don't want to read on, then that's up to you.
 
So far, to effectively 'prove' that what you are hearing is 'true', be aware of expectation bias, and go ahead with some open minded blind testing. That's about it for those of us who don't have a doctorate in electronics engineering or a ClinPsyD after their name.
Or just pour another drink and say sod it.
 
My hi-fi always sounds better after some wine. There’s definitely something here.

Have you ever wondered why your hi-fi sounds better at the dealer’s?
I have.

And finally ofc, as posted before, if positive effects can be caused by Placebo, then surely so can negative ones be generated. In HiFi terms then, it must be possible to refuse to hear actual changes if ones belief in their non existence is strong enough?

That is certainly true also. But then that will save a lot of money too. So it is a good, positive effect.
 


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