How Long Before A Vote Of No Confidence In Johnson Government? II

[Tony L]

As someone who supported the idea of Brexit I can understand why you think that. You also supported the hard-right nationalism of Trump and Putin and the brutal dictatorship of Assad, so forgive me if I find your judgement and perspective on matters concerning politics somewhat flawed.

 

[maxflinn]

As someone who supported the idea of Brexit I can understand why you think that.

I initially thought Brexit might mean the UK breaking away from the grip of the genocidal U.S. Neocon foreign policy agenda. That's why I said I'd vote for Brexit were I living in the UK (I could as I was born there). However after a while I realised I was wrong, and it would make no difference, so I changed my mind and would now vote to remain were I living in the UK, in the event of a second referendum.

Being opposed to war shaped my initial position on it.

You also supported the hard-right nationalism of Trump

Another lie.

I said I'd vote for him were I in the U.S. as it might stop Clinton getting in. My reasoning being that she was a proven genocidal warmonger who was talking about setting up a no-fly zone in Syria which would have meant war against Syria and Russia in Syria, and Trump was talking about ending Neocon regime change wars.

Again, my anti-war stance shaping my thoughts.

and Putin

I supported Putin standing against the savagery of the Neocon-driven regime change war in Syria which has cost the lives of 500,000 people, and standing up against U.S. state terrorism in general.

Again, anti-war considerations.

and the brutal dictatorship of Assad

Assad's Syria has been the victim of a genocidal regime change war driven by the US, Israel, the UK, France, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Qatar and the UAE. I supported the Syrian Arab Army, Hezbollah, Iran and Russia as they fought against the head-chopping, Western-armed and supported Jihadis used by the aforementioned powers to prosecute said regime change war. I support the right of the Syrian people to choose who leads them, even if that person is Assad.

Again, my anti-war stance in play. Spot a trend?

so forgive me if I find your judgement and perspective on matters concerning politics somewhat flawed.

Forgive me if I find your intellectual dishonesty and constant misrepresentations of my political positions to be quite annoying.

Anyway. I don't really care anymore. Say what you like.

 

[avole]

Do you vote in the British elections? Or are these yet again opinions from someone safely hiding behind the shield of no actual required involvement?

Me, I have a British passport so am involved, right up to the thinning hairs at top of my head. I cannot believe what is happening in the UK, the return of fascism on a scale I thought long since disappeared. If it does return I do not have a choice, I will have to return and fight, even if for a democracy that was and is deeply flawed.

Whether a vote was democratic or not does not matter now.

 

[avole]

P.S. I try to avoid melodrama, but find it hard to suffer fools gladly.

 

[kendo]

I initially thought Brexit might mean the UK breaking away from the grip of the genocidal U.S. Neocon foreign policy agenda. That's why I said I'd vote for Brexit were I living in the UK (I could as I was born there). However after a while I realised I was wrong, and it would make no difference, so I changed my mind and would now vote to remain were I living in the UK, in the event of a second referendum.

Being opposed to war shaped my initial position on it.

Another lie.

I said I'd vote for him were I in the U.S. as it might stop Clinton getting in. My reasoning being that she was a proven genocidal warmonger who was talking about setting up a no-fly zone in Syria which would have meant war against Syria and Russia in Syria, and Trump was talking about ending Neocon regime change wars.

Again, my anti-war stance shaping my thoughts.

I supported Putin standing against the savagery of the Neocon-driven regime change war in Syria which has cost the lives of 500,000 people, and standing up against U.S. state terrorism in general.

Again, anti-war considerations.

Assad's Syria has been the victim of a genocidal regime change war driven by the US, Israel, the UK, France, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Qatar and the UAE. I supported the Syrian Arab Army, Hezbollah, Iran and Russia as they fought against the head-chopping, Western-armed and supported Jihadis used by the aforementioned powers to prosecute said regime change war. I support the right of the Syrian people to choose who leads them, even if that person is Assad.

Again, my anti-war stance in play. Spot a trend?

Forgive me if I find your intellectual dishonesty and constant misrepresentations of my political positions to be quite annoying.

Anyway. I don't really care anymore. Say what you like.

Max, your anti-war stance is admirable but surely you must have known Trump was an unaccountable disaster waiting to happen if only because he was standing for the GOP. He had previous...Lots.
Putin? Ffs Putin? Not a good example for anything remotely democratic or...err...peace loving. He also has previous...Lots.
Assad's last election for the presidency was only slightly less whiffy than his previous uncontested elections, so it's a little unclear how representative of the Syrian people he is . He too had previous...Lots.
My advice is discuss what these fekkers represent and not the person, as at best they're just human but these three are particularly vile.

 

[thebigfredc]

Max,

Maybe best to stay out of politics as none out of four really is a shit record. It might not be your forte, especially Brexit seeing as you don't even live here anymore.

Ray

 

[avole]

Also, max, hate to be pedantic but you can’t vote in UK elections necessarily at all. You have to live there, and be on the electoral roll.

I know it’s not your usual thing, but checking the facts can be useful.

 

[cooky1257]

Just because Max can't vote in uk elections doesn't mean he can't express an opinion, moreover given his location the consequences for a hard brexit/no deal have rather more pressing implications than a shortage of Lancashire cheese.The moralising re favourable comments regarding Putin or Assad ignore the shameful and morally bankrupt behaviours of 'our' side in matters of war/terrorists as allies and the neo con agenda in the ME.
Plenty here will vote Boris or Swinson but Corbyn is the danger to life and limb in the UK....FFS.
That said I've lost count of the number of times I've wanted to strangle Corbyn for his fence sitting and bet- hedging for the past 3 years. The cross party brexit vote has torn us apart and while we've all been squabbling on the back seat a maniac is now driving the bus.

 

[ks.234]

I don't believe you did.

I was conflating your morals with the pack of dogs you run with.

My apologies.

‘The pack of dogs I run with’?? Yet another cheap insult for anyone who supports the only viable opposition to the Tories. Using an apology as another cheap insult is passive aggressive and unworthy

 

[farfromthesun]

Sanctimonious much?

Anyway, squabbling aside - and it certainly needs sidelining right now - the only chance for Johnson to be foiled is for unity around a sensible position. Let's all hope that we see this emerge in the coming days. Corbyn, Swinson, Sturgeon, Grieve, Clarke, Bercow et al need to put their years of political and parliamentary experience to exceptional use. This will be the most historic few weeks, and I sincerely hope they can prevail against the rising far right, else the future is dark.

 

[avole]

Just because Max can't vote in uk elections doesn't mean he can't express an opinion, moreover given his location the consequences for a hard brexit/no deal have rather more pressing implications than a shortage of Lancashire cheese.The moralising re favourable comments regarding Putin or Assad ignore the shameful and morally bankrupt behaviours of 'our' side in matters of war/terrorists as allies and the neo con agenda in the ME.
Plenty here will vote Boris or Swinson but Corbyn is the danger to life and limb in the UK....FFS.

No, you miss the point. Moral bankruptcy is shared on ALL SIDES of the political spectrum, you cannot and should not ignore it as otherwise any opinion you have becomes irrelevant. There’s no moralising, merely pleas for balance.

No one said Max shouldn’t express opinions, especially informed ones, just that not having any influence on an outcome can occasionally grate on others who have to live with Brexit, Putin excesses etc day to day.

And on that note, I’m off to the barricades.

 

[NeilR]

I will have to return and fight, even if for a democracy that was and is deeply flawed.

Kudos to you for wanting to go and fight.

I'm done with the place to be honest. My preference is to get as far away from the place as possible and cut all ties. I'll remain holed up in our hideout in the Swiss hills for the foreseeable future.

 

[Stunsworth]

I initially thought Brexit might mean the UK breaking away from the grip of the genocidal U.S. Neocon foreign policy agenda.

Really? You didn't consider the UK's 'special relationship' with the US, and whether detached from the EU the UK may need to align itself closer to the US?

 

[cooky1257]

A quick scan of today's paper's headlines will make you weep. They show what 'we' are up against, the widespread support for Boris from the sources of the endless attacks on the left, the demonising of dissenting voices and personalities and of oppositional factions against this far right cabal at the heart of the Tory party tells us something and hints at the xenophobia at the heart of Boris's brexit.. Most demoralising is seeing these endless anti left tropes repeated here by people who know better. NeilR has the right idea.

 

[Woodface]

The result of the democratic Brexit referendum was to leave. As has been said on here countless times this result simply could not have been ignored by Labour. Had Labour 'fought it' as you put it from the off they'd have been absolutely slaughtered in the last GE and Britain would now already be out of the EU.

Labour agreed amongst themselves at their party conference in 2017 to try to find a compromise by way of a soft Brexit which would have involved a customs union and still very close relations with the EU, designed to safeguard jobs and so on, so there would be Brexit but not a potentially very damaging Tory hard, or, no deal Brexit.

Labour have fought against Tory Brexit in all its forms consistently. And I mean the party and Corbyn, who you seem to think rules with an iron fist. He doesn't, he leads by consensus.

These are facts, not Momentum propaganda memes/tropes!

You know all this. You are fully aware of it yet continue to relentlessly declare that Corbyn/Labour enabled, supported etc the ugly nationalist project you see Brexit to be.

This is intellectual dishonesty. Have you not noticed that your attacks have become so unhinged that they're not even getting many likes anymore?

I'd take a step back, Tony, and look at your behaviour, as to be honest it has in part led to a sometimes nasty, vindictive atmosphere here.

The above facts are true as is the fact that Corbyn has been generally anti EU. He & his supporters make much of the consistency of his viewpoints so this should at least be acknowledged in relation to Europe.

 

[ks.234]

Sanctimonious much?

.

If taken in context, no.

 

[Philim]

A quick scan of today's paper's headlines will make you weep. They show what 'we' are up against, the widespread support for Boris from the sources of the endless attacks on the left, the demonising of dissenting voices and personalities and of oppositional factions against this far right cabal at the heart of the Tory party tells us something and hints at the xenophobia at the heart of Boris's brexit.. Most demoralising is seeing these endless anti left tropes repeated here by people who know better. NeilR has the right idea.

To be fair this works both ways.

Us trade = bad / EU trade trade = good (socialist dislike of capitalism in US)
Us trade = chlorinated chicken (no different to bendy bananas as an idiotic reference point)
US trade = NHS run by US
Berkow and parliament has used the powers available to him to stop brexit. Why shouldn't Boris do the same?
You hint at xenophobia of Boris/Torys and yet criticise the equivalent of which there is much evidence of the extreme lefts anti Semitism as an endless attack.
There has been endless faux outrage on the radio at the "proroguing" of parliament yesterday. I can only assume Bojo got his dates wrong as it is timed with the conference season and ends before we brexit. Not massively effective.
Bojo has been demonised as driving a no deal brexit. I suspect bojo wants hard brexit as much as Corbyn wants to remain and Bojo is using the only card he has to force the EU hand.

Let's be honest we are all being played by different parties trying to twist the situation. Bojo is desperately trying to force EU hand into an amendment on the back stop and this a isway of making him look as if he is serious about no deal even though he has only removed about 5 days from parliament calendar. Remember both him and mogg voted for Mays deal.
Corbyn has tried to manipulate brexit since 2016 for his own benefit and has never been honest with his followers on labours position.

I still personally blame social media and the internet for creating an environment that ends up with people taking extreme views on anything and everything which is why we are in this mess. Pragmatic views don't cut through but that's another point.

 

[sean99]

NeilR has the right idea.

I’m not sure the Swiss would welcome a mass influx of remainer refugees.

 

[cooky1257]

@ Philm; But it can't work both ways when as I have illustrated there's such domination by the right wing media.

 

[sean99]

I still personally blame social media and the internet for creating an environment that ends up with people taking extreme views on anything and everything which is why we are in this mess. Pragmatic views don't cut through but that's another point.

I think there’s a lot in this, but it’s not social media itself so much as its abuse by those seeking to manipulate, both foreign and domestic. It’s like giving the Kremlin a regular column in the Sun/Express/mail/Torygraph