Guitar talk: acoustic, bass, classical, twelve string? You name it! Pt II

[saturn9]

It's a Faith "Blood Moon" Venus

Well played, lovely things.

My noodler of choice...
IMG_20190808_082318216 by John T, on Flickr

 

[gavreid]

Beato's content is aimed at people who do music theory and learn/play guitar in a music school sort of way. So if you have a serious interest in jazz improv, re-harmonisation, etc. then he's great. Otherwise not so much.

I think perhaps it's the modes that people find alien. Modal harmony went out of fashion in western music in the mid-1600s, and really only came back in modern Jazz music from the 50s (Miles Davis) so the vast majority of people wouldn't know what he's on about. Most people would be happy playing what's called traditional harmony, i.e. everything is relative to a 'home' key. Guitar is usually learnt through 'simple' songs (that are almost always in a single key) and the chords that comprise the harmony, together with the rhythm. The chords (i.e. the 1st, 3rd and 5th notes of that particular scale) that are played in the home key, all fall within the home scale. So a pattern emerges e.g. in a major key and ignoring the vii chord which is only very rarely played - maj, min, min, maj, maj, min, so in G maj you get Gmaj, Amin, Bmin, Cmaj, Dmaj and Emin etc, all the notes comprising these chords are in the Gmaj scale. It's really helpful to learn the notes under each finger in a chord and not just the pattern. I find it helpjul to play the Gmaj scale starting from as many G's as there are on the fretboard, and to say the name of the note to myself as I'm playing it. The pentatonic scales arises, in a guitar context from blues music, and is really a simplification of the 7 note scale that's much easier to play and to sound good in a variety of contexts. A pentatonic scale is just 5 notes of the 7 from a major or minor scale. Often solos are just notes from the pentatonic scale that can be played over the traditional harmony and sound pleasant.

 

[-alan-]

Guitar is usually learnt through 'simple' songs (that are almost always in a single key) and the chords that comprise the harmony, together with the rhythm. The chords (i.e. the 1st, 3rd and 5th notes of that particular scale) that are played in the home key, all fall within the home scale. So a pattern emerges e.g. in a major key and ignoring the vii chord which is only very rarely played - maj, min, min, maj, maj, min, so in G maj you get Gmaj, Amin, Bmin, Cmaj, Dmaj and Emin etc, all the notes comprising these chords are in the Gmaj scale. It's really helpful to learn the notes under each finger in a chord and not just the pattern. I find it helpjul to play the Gmaj scale starting from as many G's as there are on the fretboard, and to say the name of the note to myself as I'm playing it. The pentatonic scales arises, in a guitar context from blues music, and is really a simplification of the 7 note scale that's much easier to play and to sound good in a variety of contexts. A pentatonic scale is just 5 notes of the 7 from a major or minor scale. Often solos are just notes from the pentatonic scale that can be played over the traditional harmony and sound pleasant.

That has practically quadrupled (at the very minimum..) my knowledge of musical theory as applied to guitar

Excellent stuff.

 

[matthewr]

I think perhaps it's the modes that people find alien.

Yes. For years I was baffled with modes and couldn't get past the "so it's the same scale you just start somewhere else and it sounds different even though it's mostly the same notes?"

Also there seems to me to be a big jump if you go from trad guitar of a key + its chords + major scale & its relative minor, etc. to being able to spell chords and scales and learning and practising lots of arpeggios, inversions, etc. It's this knowing what you are playing and where everything is that seems to take people from being good at the guitar to the next level.

I actually know way more theory than I should for my hackish level of playing because I was always trying to make up for my very dodgy ear and hoping that if I just knew where everything is I would go from strum along with songs I like to being musical. This is why my Dad is always complaining that I don't "play songs" as I am now obsessed with chords and scales and hoping that somehow noodling around will at some point unlock it all and I will become musical. My conclusion after 30+ years of this is that it doesn't work and I will just never be someone who can play by ear or with other people (unless we all agree on exactly what will be played).

What has changed since I did most of my guitar learning/playing in my 20s and 30s is the internet. There is now so much online in very accessible form that previously one would have to buy multiple books. Indeed Rick Beato's book is basically a graduate level guitar music theory course with all the theory you would learn if you went to music school as a guitarist.

 

[gavreid]

That has practically quadrupled (at the very minimum..) my knowledge of musical theory as applied to guitar

Excellent stuff.

Thanks! Maybe it would help to go a bit further then? I didn't want to sound patronising or big headed!

@matthewr is correct. We have major and minor in most western music. Take the key of C it has no sharps or flats. There is a second scale for which that is also true - A minor. The two scales are exactly the same except one starts with C and the other A. For each major key there is a 'relative minor', with exactly the same key signature, exactly the same scale but starting on the 6th note. The brain somehow sorts this out based on where the other notes are placed. Imagine that there are 7 scales starting with C, then D, E, F, G, A and finally B but each time only playing the notes of the C scale (no sharps or flats), we know the A version is called A minor or the sixth mode of the C scale which is called the aeolian, and the others all have names too, the major scale is called the ionian. So these are the modes, and while we normally have two, there in fact 7 diffferent flavours (there are variants of the minor scales but these borrow notes from outside the home scale). Some folk music (e.g. Scottish/Irish) is based around modes where the origins date way back in time, and modern jazz too, but that's why we only use major and minor 99% of the time.

There isn't a lot left in music theory (harmony aside) other than changing between keys. Important in classical music but almost never used in rock music. Famously, the Beatles played around with key changes in Sgt Pepper's, being taught what's called 'modulation' by George Martin.

That's enough

 

[matthewr]

Also why Am pentatonic is so ubiquitous for beginning guitar players:

-- Am is the relative minor of C
-- Pentatonic is the almost impossible to play a wrong note scale so you don't need to worry (as much) about playing the chord changes and just need to the right key.
-- A is the 5th fret of the fat E string so it's really easy to add extensions up and down and quickly get an easy to use scale that covers a big chunk of neck real estate.

The only mistake you can now make in one's guitar odyssey is not learn anything else for 25 years

 

[gavreid]

The only mistake you can now make in one's guitar odyssey is not learn anything else for 25 years

I stopped learning and playing music at 18. Didn't start again for 30 years but it doesn't leave you. You're right though, you have to push yourself in new directions, and that often means having something to play/practice for...

 

[matthewr]

The thing I mostly missed, I think, was playing with other people and my only experience of that was playing along to records. So this time around I have been doing a lot more drum loop on the computer > record some chords on my looper > try to improvise on top. This has produced more progress this time around than 15 years or trying to pretend I was in Pavement.

Trying to be like Lou Barlow / But I'm more like Ken Barlow

The other thing I would say is that although my ear is very sketchy I do have a good sense of rhythm. I should probably have been a drummer then at least the bass players could look down on me

 

[gavreid]

Nothing like playing with others. Improvisation is something classical musicians are generally hopeless at - which scales you can use to ad lib over chords in the key. Justin touched on some of that with Lee Anderton if you saw those videos. He came on leaps and bounds once the penny had dropped

 

[Yank]

My conclusion after 30+ years of this is that it doesn't work and I will just never be someone who can play by ear or with other people (unless we all agree on exactly what will be played).

The thing about being able to "hang with the cats" is that to get good at it, you have to spend time actually playing with other people. It's not something that can come from woodshedding.

 

[matthewr]

The thing about being able to "hang with the cats" is that to get good at it, you have to spend time actually playing with other people. It's not something that can come from woodshedding.

Yeah I totally get that. But I am always battling against my lack of any sort of musical ear so I suspect that me playing with others just wouldn't work and they would pretty soon stop returning my phone calls

I am just not a very musical person, never been in bands, cannot sing a note, etc. and I only persevere because I enjoy it despite being terrible.

 

[Tony L]

The other thing I would say is that although my ear is very sketchy I do have a good sense of rhythm.

I’d argue that was the important bit for most new-wave/indie/alt sort of stuff which I guess is where you (like me) tend to exist. In a band context being able to lock-in time-wise is the most important bit, and if you are playing original music there are no ‘wrong’ notes! If you want ‘that’ ‘there’ that is entirely your business and all anyone else can do is like/not like it, not sign your band, not play you on the radio or whatever!

When it comes to rock music I’m of the firm belief that at least 50% of the best stuff contains no music theory at all! I’d take say Practice Makes Perfect by Wire over any amount of TPS-style blues noodling any day despite my being in awe of the technical skill of both Mick and Dan.

 

[saturn9]

We have major and minor in most western music. Take the key of C it has no sharps or flats. There is a second scale for which that is also true - A minor. The two scales are exactly the same except one starts with C and the other A. For each major key there is a 'relative minor', with exactly the same key signature, exactly the same scale but starting on the 6th note. The brain somehow sorts this out based on where the other notes are placed. Imagine that there are 7 scales starting with C, then D, E, F, G, A and finally B but each time only playing the notes of the C scale (no sharps or flats), we know the A version is called A minor or the sixth mode of the C scale which is called the aeolian, and the others all have names too, the major scale is called the ionian. So these are the modes, and while we normally have two, there in fact 7 diffferent flavours (there are variants of the minor scales but these borrow notes from outside the home scale). Some folk music (e.g. Scottish/Irish) is based around modes where the origins date way back in time, and modern jazz too, but that's why we only use major and minor 99% of the time

Hmm. Thought I understood the first post but I’m a bit lost here. I’m off to buy a dunces cap.

 

[gavreid]

When it comes to rock music I’m of the firm belief that at least 50% of the best stuff contains no music theory at all! I’d take say Practice Makes Perfect by Wire over any amount of TPS-style blues noodling any day despite my being in awe of the technical skill of both Mick and Dan.

If by no theory you mean did the band understand the structure of their songs then that's quite possibly true. Nobody wants a rigid formulaic approach to music after all and that's why particular genres become dated and things move on. The theory comes in by accident in that people become accustomed to particular sounds that fit well together. Apparently babies start to learn this while still in the womb!

 

[matthewr]

I’d argue that was the important bit for most new-wave/indie/alt sort of stuff which I guess is where you (like me) tend to exist. In a band context being able to lock-in time-wise is the most important bit, and if you are playing original music there are no ‘wrong’ notes! If you want ‘that’ ‘there’ that is entirely your business and all anyone else can do is like/not like it, not sign your band, not play you on the radio or whatever!

When it comes to rock music I’m of the firm belief that at least 50% of the best stuff contains no music theory at all! I’d take say Practice Makes Perfect by Wire over any amount of TPS-style blues noodling any day despite my being in awe of the technical skill of both Mick and Dan.

A good tip I picked up (possibly a Justin guitar one) is that in most simple western music, any bum note is basically never more than a semitone from one in the scale you need. So as long as your reactions are good enough to can treat it as a *cough* grace note or glissando if you want to be posh and just slide it up or down one fret. Or play the Jazz card and say you have been experimenting with chromaticism

"Three Girl Rumba" by Wire is a fine example of super easy but sounds great guitar tune. The anyonecanplayguitar youtube guy has that and a couple more Wire songs and they are well within my comfort zone.

 

[matthewr]

If by no theory you mean did the band understand the structure of their songs then that's quite possibly true. Nobody wants a rigid formulaic approach to music after all and that's why particular genres become dated and things move on. The theory comes in by accident in that people become accustomed to particular sounds that fit well together. Apparently babies start to learn this while still in the womb!

The other thing to remember about Tony's musical tastes is that as much as he likes simple stuff like Wire he also likes all that Can stuff and quite modern classical music (or things influenced by that). So ironically for someone who doesn't like music theory he is drawn to lots of stuff based on the theory you do when you get to the final year of music school or chapter 10 of the Beato Book. It also implies he has a great ear (you kind of have to like a lot of Jazz after about 1950 IME).

 

[Tony L]

Another thing I’d argue, certainly from the way I’ve approached music (both electronic and guitar based), is a lot of the stuff I really like is textural/rhythmic/drone based rather than conventionally melodic. I can recall countless times when writing with others deliberately veering away from ‘tunes’/melody when such things accidentally started to appear in jams. The ‘no pop hooks’ rule! The fake-Krautrock project from a few years back had some pretty firm rules of everything working somewhere around E and no key changes in order to keep it in the intended zone.

PS I’m not for a second saying I don’t like/respect music theory, in many ways it is a huge life regret not to have learned anything, but I’m almost certainly too far long gone and easily distracted to pick anything much up at this point! I’d love to run an experiment with a clone and time machine and see what I thought now if I had learnt music formally/properly as a child. Would I have done more or less/would I enjoy noodling about as much as I do now etc? It would be fascinating. Unfortunately I didn’t pay any attention at school so I don’t know how to make a time machine or clone either. I find it fascinating talking to say Richard (Lordsummit) who is the polar opposite and an exceptionally gifted classical musician who went the whole music school/RNCM/orchestral player/music teaching trajectory.

 

[Stunsworth]

It also implies he has a great ear (you kind of have to like a lot of Jazz after about 1950 IME).

As someone who _doesn't_ have a great ear, one of the things I try to do when listening to 'difficult' music is to home in on the rhythm. I often find that the rest of the music falls into place after that. I guess what I'm saying is try to find something that you _can_ identify with and the rest may make more sense.

 

[matthewr]

The other thing I am very keen to understand more is how my ear works (or rather doesn't). So when I first started playing guitar I couldn't tune it at all (i.e. by comparing pitch across the strings) Now, after years of playing, I sort of can.

Similarly I have an ear training app on my phone which plays the I-IV-V-I chords to establish the key and then plays (at level 1) one of the first four notes in the major scale of that key and asks you to name it (do, ray, mi or soh). So it's basically trying to teach you relative pitch. I do this and get, consistently, about 65-70% correct.

So clearly I am not tone deaf (which would give a 25% result) but I also know that any vaguely musical person would find this farcically easy. So what, if anything, does that mean? Am is just not musical enough? Or do I need to keep going and practice more and eventually I will get it?

I can already hear you all saying "**** it, it doesn't matter" but I would give anything to be more musical so I keep plugging away trying to improve but not really getting anywhere.

 

[matt j]