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London Climate Protests

I don't see any evidence here that you've actually looked into ideas around green growth. As with the meat thing and everything else, your assumption is that you're the first person to consider challenges and "oxymorons" that are actually well understood within certain traditions. I know you despise the posting of links but unless you're prepared to acknowledge that other people (and I don't mean me) have actually thought about this kind of thing, and are having arguments about it, then really, what's the point?

I'll post this because you replied to me, but after that I'm out, as I wrote earlier; this has all come to cross purposes.

You keep stating "what I think" and that's not a basis for any reasoned discussion. I know that's how you approach things over in Brexit, or wherever, but telling someone what they think is always soon followed by how they think and ultimately why they think that way, and it's always nothing more than subterfuge for avoiding facts of argument. And I'm just not going to entertain any more it.

Interestingly, you keep going back to the "meat thing" because I assume, no - I know - it's because you feel that single exchange debunks everything else I've written by virtue of, again, being at cross purposes in making competing points and relying on patently lazy non-arguments to the substantive questions or alternative viewpoints posed to you.

I've read what is in your link before - the "decoupling" from fossil fuels suggestion. It's all basically supportive of the Green New Deal. What it does is outline a lot of very hopeful ideas - with footnotes - about what could, should, or would happen if the human race were to do A, B, C and D (and others) by 'decoupling' from fossil fuels as if it somehow the term didn't amount to "stop using it and do all this other stuff" and always with short shrift to human habits and expectations. What it doesn't do, as with the Green New Deal, is offer anything specific or actionable in the near term about how this is to be accomplished.

The term decoupling was used back in my early days in programming to describe constructing program subroutines in such a way as to reduce redundant and cumbersome code. And so I'd say the term is quite apt here, where its use reduces cumbersome details and explanation of just how any of it is supposed to happen in 9 years time.

Finally, the fact that the author is still projecting timelines out well beyond even the scientifically acknowledged as optimistic IPCC 2030 deadline goes to how out of touch this "decoupling" is. I think it's more Green hopium with an ever stretched timeline, not unlike all the other timelines that inevitably end in failure because something happens "faster than expected." Which actually is mostly a lie because if one were reading something not being hopelessly optimistic the shorter timeline is plainly in view. And with that I'm done with climate change on PFM.
 
Marky,

Just the climate change stuff. I'll irritate you some other way :)

edit: I'm going have to rethink that - I really don't want a 4 digit post count!

All the cool fishies have at least a five-digit post count.

Joe
 
... and the last thing we should have is complete arse gravy like the London scheme where you have to pay a fortune to drive into the city! Amazing how capitalist bastards suddenly find green credentials when they smell a quick buck!
Now this really boils my piss! "Wealthy enough to bribe us with £24 a day every day? Ah well yes that 5 Litre Chelsea tractor is very welcome!" Bring back hanging just for those who think it's OK to pay to pollute! Blatant financial cleansing! I'll bet London traffic consists of half Toyota Prius's and the rest hi end Mercs, Beemers, Bentleys etc... you know, the kind of motors that people who can laugh at paying £480 a month just to enter London would drive..
 
... and the last thing we should have is complete arse gravy like the London scheme where you have to pay a fortune to drive into the city! Amazing how capitalist bastards suddenly find green credentials when they smell a quick buck!
Now this really boils my piss! "Wealthy enough to bribe us with £24 a day every day? Ah well yes that 5 Litre Chelsea tractor is very welcome!" Bring back hanging just for those who think it's OK to pay to pollute!

Just view it as a ‘stupid tax’ on the wealthy in the same way speeding tickets are a ‘stupid tax’ on the thick. Its all good as people actively choose to pay it and that money can go towards building cycle paths, investing in education, hospitals etc. It is a great way of generating money that can then be redistributed for the betterment of society. I love the idea of voluntary taxes like these, anyone bright wouldn’t pay them, yet we all benefit!
 
I'll post this because you replied to me, but after that I'm out, as I wrote earlier; this has all come to cross purposes.

You keep stating "what I think" and that's not a basis for any reasoned discussion. I know that's how you approach things over in Brexit, or wherever, but telling someone what they think is always soon followed by how they think and ultimately why they think that way, and it's always nothing more than subterfuge for avoiding facts of argument. And I'm just not going to entertain any more it.

Interestingly, you keep going back to the "meat thing" because I assume, no - I know - it's because you feel that single exchange debunks everything else I've written by virtue of, again, being at cross purposes in making competing points and relying on patently lazy non-arguments to the substantive questions or alternative viewpoints posed to you.

I've read what is in your link before - the "decoupling" from fossil fuels suggestion. It's all basically supportive of the Green New Deal. What it does is outline a lot of very hopeful ideas - with footnotes - about what could, should, or would happen if the human race were to do A, B, C and D (and others) by 'decoupling' from fossil fuels as if it somehow the term didn't amount to "stop using it and do all this other stuff" and always with short shrift to human habits and expectations. What it doesn't do, as with the Green New Deal, is offer anything specific or actionable in the near term about how this is to be accomplished.

The term decoupling was used back in my early days in programming to describe constructing program subroutines in such a way as to reduce redundant and cumbersome code. And so I'd say the term is quite apt here, where its use reduces cumbersome details and explanation of just how any of it is supposed to happen in 9 years time.

Finally, the fact that the author is still projecting timelines out well beyond even the scientifically acknowledged as optimistic IPCC 2030 deadline goes to how out of touch this "decoupling" is. I think it's more Green hopium with an ever stretched timeline, not unlike all the other timelines that inevitably end in failure because something happens "faster than expected." Which actually is mostly a lie because if one were reading something not being hopelessly optimistic the shorter timeline is plainly in view. And with that I'm done with climate change on PFM.
You don't get to say when you're out! We say when you're out!

I'm not claiming to know what you think, I'm just going by what you say, which is usually, "Well if you can't see that there's a massive problem there then I can't help you!" (You literally started your last reply to me with "I realise you fail to see that"!) And my point was that in every case the problem is well recognised, and not the end of the story.
 
....are small light goods vehicles drivers runnng their own small bizs on shoe strings - such as , service folk, plumbers, florists, bakers all working from outside CG etc all wealthy? Or just stupid?

It's rhetorical as clearly they are none of above, but lumped in. They don't all use small cheap diesel van cos they don't give a toss about the ecological issues, or because they are Thatcher acolytes. It's all about costs.

There is no dispensation nor is there clear plan to help smbs into viabLe alt eco transport for their wares. So they pay - but of course they just pass it on to their customers.

That London is an amazing city, if you spend time there you start to get what it takes to keep 10+ million fed watered and serviced.
 
Just view it as a ‘stupid tax’ on the wealthy in the same way speeding tickets are a ‘stupid tax’ on the thick. Its all good as people actively choose to pay it and that money can go towards building cycle paths, investing in education, hospitals etc. It is a great way of generating money that can then be redistributed for the betterment of society. I love the idea of voluntary taxes like these, anyone bright wouldn’t pay them, yet we all benefit!

I very strongly disagree! And as an avowed petrol head and owner of a nigh on 200 mph motorbike you can guess what I think of your interpretation of speeding fines!
The idea that the rich can pollute but not the poor pisses me off 10 x more than the pollution itself! Ban all cars and make the (already better than anywhere else in the UK) public transport system even better... if not banning them altogether then a rota of say 2 days a week you can drive in, no matter who you are or how rich, would be fair.
When I worked for MF and then Alchemist I lived in London near The City, in Southwark, about 10 mins walk from The Shard (which I've never seen! that long since I was last in that London!), Every time I rode 100 yards out of the car park I'd be liable to pay £24! (I believe bikes are no longer exempt).
 
I lived in That London for quite a few years and I can not comprehend why anyone would choose to drive there. As you say it is the one part of the UK with a pretty much functioning public transport system, and it is a great place to cycle too (which I did a lot). The more cars you get out of there the better IMO. Tax the crap out of them!
 
Just in case anyone hasn’t heard it here is Greta Thunberg’s speech from earlier today in parliament in full (Guardian). A 16 year old Swedish school girl with Aspergers speaking in a foreign language has delivered one of the most amazingly powerful speeches I’ve ever heard in my life. Truly amazing and humbling.
 
Steve,

Sure, you can point that out. ;-)

Joe
 
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Anyways .. I really tried to stop commenting here about this over a month ago when I dumped out of the climate thread. Because there's really no audience for someone into collapsology (yes, it's a thing!) on PFM since no one else appears to be like-minded. For whatever reason, likely because I'm engrossed with it <snip>

There are forums and sites devoted to the collapsology thing happening now with more posters since the possibility of it happening are becoming more real to more people by the day. The trouble with them so far is the level of angry nihilism, fatalism, and a bias for collapse to justify personal stuff. But there are more interested and like-minded folks too. So ... there it is
It sounds a bit like survivalism to me. Do these people advocate stockpiling food and weapons in wilderness hideouts, I wonder?
 
Marky,

Assuming the figs quoted a couple of posts up are correct, even if storage and transmission of electrical energy were trivial — and they're not — 112,000 square km of photovoltaic panels is a shitload of photovoltaic panels.

Joe
Storage on that scale is not practical. This means that you need generation in several places, both E and W Africa, Iran, Australia,Mexico and Peru
Distribution is hard but possible, we know how to do high voltage DC lines on continental scales.

The hardest bit is political
 
I think 'storage' could be done via conversion. Desalination of sea water to irrigate arid areas and 'mining' the salts for minerals; electrolysis of water to produce hydrogen, which could be introduced to the natural gas network or used in new infrastructure, or used to power the existing gas fired stations when the power is required again.

The point being, there is potentially a superabundance of available power for the taking, at comparatively little environmental cost. So it matters less if the storage or conversion measures are relatively inefficient.
 
And then there are things like this:

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/02/liquid-metal-catalyst-turns-carbon-dioxide-coal

Yes, just a lab tabletop experiment right now, but conversion of atmospheric CO2, or CO2 at the point of emission, has to be a desirable option and there's lots of work ongoing in the area. The catalyst sounds a bit exotic, and no real idea how practical it would be to scale it up, but these are technological problems, and we're quite good at solving those.
 
; electrolysis of water to produce hydrogen, which could be introduced to the natural gas network or used to power the existing gas fired stations when the power is required again.

.

I didn't really pay attention at school but wouldn't your proposal use more electricity than it would generate.... in the same way that a motor driving a generator wouldn't create enough power to drive itself?

You are suggesting a perpetual motion machine there.

Also... desalinisation to irrigate arid areas will just get us more people living and the concomitant increase in demand for more energy.

What is needed is for the developed world to go back to levels of consumption of resources last seen in the Middle Ages and the rest of the world to hold where they are now.

You are just suggesting ways where we can just keep "having it all".
 


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