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Go Bernie 2020

mark.

we have actually been through this fiat/gold thing on the forum and i am not really keen on that "debate" (perhaps matthew will chime in here). what i fail to see is the connection to green new deal, which you preface everything by. is your point that everything is so f*cked up in terms of economics that there is no point doing anything until we go back to a gold standard? there would be a logic in that, but it means that we can't really talk in depth about much else.

if we are going to speak only of core economics, then i'd say that wealth inequality is the far, far greater problem that seems oblivious to the currency standards we adopt.
 
Marky-Mark said:
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The only thing I can think of as a suggestion would be a lot of planning for the disasters already unfolding or about to. Collapse is all around us. From Trump to Brexit, to Africa and Australia, to the soil depletion that threatens crops and food supplies, impending mass migrations as the climate becomes inhospitable, quickly disappearing aquifers nationwide in the USA, the list goes on.

No one said it was all going to go BOOM! But it's also unravelling pretty much like more than a few scientists in the fields of climate, thermodynamics, and geo-politics predicted it would decades ago. Throw unknown positive feedbacks into the mix and you could have a BOOM scenario, relatively speaking.
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I take 'we are doomed' talk not very seriously. I've have heard tons of it just about all the days of my life, which is to say, over the past 6 decades. If the seas rise dozens of feet, lots of people will have to move, that's all. I suspect they will rise less, and fewer people will have to move. Can't say I really know. Main point is that as I recall it, by now we all should have been dead for decades due to overpopulation, overpollution, and overkill. Used to get worried. But we made it out of the 20th century alive, and my worrier is a lot less active these days.

Don't really see a lot of potential in dialog with you, to tell the truth. If you don't see what I mean about 'money as religion' the cognitive gulf is pretty great. Carry on; seek harmony.
 
don.

the big difference is that it's now scientists who are are making alarmist statements, not stoned hippies. i'm just in my 5th decade and rather depressed about all of it. can't imagine how the the people feel.


mark.

i have just spent some time trying to find a scholarly defense of the gold standard on youtube. i thought maybe something had changed in the past 10 years. it hasn't really -- just variations on the same "money as debt" cartoons.

i follow with some regularity what mark blythe , richard wolff, thomas picketty, paul krugman and joseph stiglitz have to say (lectures + editorial writings) and they never, ever talk about this.
 
DonQuixote99 said:
I take 'we are doomed' talk not very seriously. I've have heard tons of it just about all the days of my life, which is to say, over the past 6 decades. If the seas rise dozens of feet, lots of people will have to move, that's all. I suspect they will rise less, and fewer people will have to move. Can't say I really know. Main point is that as I recall it, by now we all should have been dead for decades due to overpopulation, overpollution, and overkill. Used to get worried. But we made it out of the 20th century alive, and my worrier is a lot less active these days.

Don't really see a lot of potential in dialog with you, to tell the truth. If you don't see what I mean about 'money as religion' the cognitive gulf is pretty great. Carry on; seek harmony.
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That's fine. I think it's very much a bury the head in the sand approach, but if that's your take on it that's all good with me. Like I said, I'm not typing to change anyone's mind about anything. It's all just another perspective a little unlike what's prevailing here.

Still no reply to The Bern! hiring swamp dudes while riding his big populist horse?
 
vuk said:
don.

the big difference is that it's now scientists who are are making alarmist statements, not stoned hippies. i'm just in my 5th decade and rather depressed about all of it. can't imagine how the the people feel.


mark.

i have just spent some time trying to find a scholarly defense of the gold standard on youtube. i thought maybe something had changed in the past 10 years. it hasn't really -- just variations on the same "money as debt" cartoons.

i follow with some regularity what mark blythe , richard wolff, thomas picketty, paul krugman and joseph stiglitz have to say (lectures + editorial writings) and they never, ever talk about this.
Click to expand...

No one really talks much about it, that's sort of the point. No one seems to talk about much beyond what popular media provides as fodder.
 
vuk said:
don.

the big difference is that it's now scientists who are are making alarmist statements, not stoned hippies. i'm just in my 5th decade and rather depressed about all of it. can't imagine how the the people feel.
Click to expand...
You are wrong here. Scientists have been saying this for many years, as in just under your age. However, it was too far away to makes headlines. The difference now is that the early forecasters were sometimes incorrect on the rate of change, not that it wouldn't happen.

Stoned hippies? Now there's a huge value judgement!
 
vuk said:
mark.

we have actually been through this fiat/gold thing on the forum and i am not really keen on that "debate" (perhaps matthew will chime in here). what i fail to see is the connection to green new deal, which you preface everything by. is your point that everything is so f*cked up in terms of economics that there is no point doing anything until we go back to a gold standard? there would be a logic in that, but it means that we can't really talk in depth about much else.

if we are going to speak only of core economics, then i'd say that wealth inequality is the far, far greater problem that seems oblivious to the currency standards we adopt.
Click to expand...

Fair enough. I would suggest you ponder the factors of that wealth inequality that bothers you. It may surprise you. The connection to the GND is tangential and only that it's another big lie as a next big thing. I would add to that only that the fiat fractional reserve as the engine of financial growth is 1 to 1 analogous to the kicking of the can down the road as is governmental response to climate change.

I think if anyone takes the time to look at the math they would see the solution proposed by the GND (so far only renewables are in play) as complete nonsense not unlike the nonsense behind the promises of finance capitalism's solution to its own problems. I really do think the success of each will parallel each other.
 
avole said:
You are wrong here. Scientists have been saying this for many years, as in just under your age. However, it was too far away to makes headlines. The difference now is that the early forecasters were sometimes incorrect on the rate of change, not that it wouldn't happen.

Stoned hippies? Now there's a huge value judgement!
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Actually, there were warnings about C02 as far back as a decade or two after the start of the US industrial revolution. Problem was then as it is now: growth was as intoxicating as up-votes on a Twitter feed.

I'm really beginning to think that the forecasters' incorrect rate of change in the past will be more than made up for in the future. There's a thing for it with climate watchers -- STE "Sooner Than Expected" not to be confused with the epoch of SHTF.
 
Marky-Mark said:
No one really talks much about it, that's sort of the point. No one seems to talk about much beyond what popular media provides as fodder.
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perhaps if i listened only to approved, establishment types like paul krugman, but blythe and wolff are pretty radical guys and not afraid to be highly critical of the system. in fact, wolff thinks we need something totally new. personally, i also think the value of "growth" is largely an ideological one, especially given what we have already achieved. i'm pretty sure that, if we could redesign everything and did so with intelligence and good intentions, the concept of a gold standard would have as much of a chance as a return feudalism (though jeff bezos might protest).
 
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Has anyone been keeping an eye on how, in these very early days, the mainstream US media, namely the so-called 'left-leaning' MSNBC, CNN etc have been covering the progressive and anti-war Democratic candidates for the 2020 elections?

I have. The misinformation, propaganda, lies and mischaracterisations are off the scale, even for these channels.

It's scary, but most non-mainstream left-wing political commentators are of the opinion that the public aren't buying it. I certainly hope so.
 
Yes, CNN, which seemed fine to me. Wasn't really paying much attention, though, as I was trying to explain to the new dog that the sofa was off limits, and, more particularly, had no food value whatsoever.

I'm not really interested in US politics, since there is nothing that the average non-US resident can do about it. As to propaganda - one person's propaganda is another person's fact.
 
Bernie on The Real News Network.

The first thing he says is thank you to TRNN for the great work they're doing:


 
If you are a true socialist you wouldn't give a **** about Sanders, nor his UK clone, Corbyn, they're like all the rest, rich men playing the socialism card.

In the days when I was a card carrying communist, Siberia would have been the obvious solution. Later, when I realised Mao was probably right, I would merely have confiscated their wealth, re-educated them and put them out on the fields.
 
avole said:
If you are a true socialist you wouldn't give a **** about Sanders, nor his UK clone, Corbyn, they're like all the rest, rich men playing the socialism card.

In the days when I was a card carrying communist, Siberia would have been the obvious solution. Later, when I realised Mao was probably right, I would merely have confiscated their wealth, re-educated them and put them out on the fields.
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Even if you are joking, you still get my vote for most f*cked up post of the year.
 
avole said:
If you are a true socialist you wouldn't give a **** about Sanders, nor his UK clone, Corbyn, they're like all the rest, rich men playing the socialism card.

In the days when I was a card carrying communist, Siberia would have been the obvious solution. Later, when I realised Mao was probably right, I would merely have confiscated their wealth, re-educated them and put them out on the fields.
Click to expand...


Oh stop it!!.. My sides are splitting!!
 
5362.jpg

It's time to complete the revolution we started
Bernie Sanders

In 2016, our campaign began the political revolution. Now, it is time to defeat Donald Trump, complete that revolution and implement the vision we fought for.
@SenSanders

One week ago, when we launched our campaign for president, I asked people from across the country to sign up to be part of an unprecedented grassroots campaign. The response from the American people has been historic.

In six days, more than one million people have answered the call. Americans from every single congressional district in the country have signed up to help lead a movement that is not only about defeating Donald Trump, the most dangerous president in modern American history, but about creating a government based on the principles of economic, social, racial and environmental justice.

More> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/25/its-time-to-complete-the-revolution-we-started

Go Bernie, so sad I missed him on his UK tour last summer. :(
 
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