russel
./_dazed_and_confused
A lot of the people in innovative UK companies are from abroad, you really need to be able to recruit worldwide to make them work, that's why limiting people from Europe will be such a massive problem for the UK.
Oh Britain, what have you done (part ∞+14)?
- Thread starter sean99
- Start date
- Status
A lot of the people in innovative UK companies are from abroad, you really need to be able to recruit worldwide to make them work, that's why limiting people from Europe will be such a massive problem for the UK.
matthewr
spɹɐʍʞɔɐq spɹoɔǝɹ ɹnoʎ sʎɐld
To be honest I don''t really have much idea any more what all that means. I mean I can read the words and parse the text but it's such an obtuse jumble of thoughts and dark warnings that it doesn't lead me anywhere. I don't, for what it's worth, think this is your "fault" but I do think it reflects where we are with the debate. But I will attempt a reply which is, if nothing else, entirely sincere and said without malice or subterfuge of reference to other people's posts. I say that in the hope that should you want to reply you do me the courtesy of replying in the same way.
So strap yourself in this might, as is the want of these things, get longer than a usual post. It might also have some swearing although I don't think this is gratuitous as much as a reflection of the frustration I feel.
Firstly, my post about about leave voters getting a vote in any second referendum was just a straight reply to your point about a "faux referendum". To wit from a simple logical point of view it cannot be faux because everyone will get a vote. It is also, given the well documented flaws of the last referendum, hard to see how any second referendum could be any worse than the first one.
I think you can argue about sequencing, what the question is, etc. etc. but really a lot of that is just because to the complexity of the choice we face and the bluntness of a referendum. Indeed much of our problems stem from the insistence, almost exclusively from the leave camp, of treating a complex choice like a simple one. For two ****ing years and without even the merest sense of thinking that just maybe at some point it might be appropriate for people to pause, reflect on where we are and try to suggest someway we might move forward by changing their mind or just trying something different. In this sense the failings have, I think, been mostly political.
So I firmly believe that the answer to this is not to add another layer of partisan idiocy on top which is essentially what May and Corbyn have been doing. This is why so many people are so frustrated -- Corbyn and May are our leaders and their job is literally to sort stuff like this out. So far the only thing they have done is display how uniformly inadequate they are for the task.
I currently work in an environment where I am, by some distance, the least smart person in the room. What we do though is solve really, really, really ****ing hard problems. Or rather other people solve really, really, ****ing hard problems and I make myself busy doing the equivalent of making sure the bins are emptied. At the same time my mental faculties are in a sort of protracted terminal decline because of my age and my neurological condition. The thing is though even though I cannot really do my job anymore it's very obvious to me that this my place in the scheme of things. May and Corbyn in contrast seem both to completely lack insight into the banality of their own shitness and inadequacy for the roles they have found themselves in. This is why the nation collectively has its head in its hands. It's very obvious to everyone who, well, shit they are at as time of national crisis.
As to what we should do, I have said before that I think Parliament has failed and we should solve this with an A50 extension and some form of People's Assembly. I accept that none of that is straightforward but I do think it's the only way out of the absurd corner we have painted ourselves in. It will require much smarter people than me but also, I think, much smarter and better people than May and Corbyn.
Matthew
PS All the above is said with sincerity and if it sounds rude or condescending then please accept my unreserved apologies as this is not my intent. I find it increasinlgy hard to judge tone and spend a lot of my time being accidentally rude to people
PPS I recall the last time I attempted to write a post like this Joe H. punctured my pomposity with the Hutchian equivalent of a LOL. But at this point I don't know any other way to write this sort of thing than laboriously.
eternumviti
Insufficient privileges to reply.
Do you mean the balance of trade of the EU (not great) or the Eurozone (good, but shrinking, and almost entirely driven by Germany and the lows, to the very direct cost of the others) with the rest of the world, or EU/EZ balance of trade with the UK? The UK isn't, for some reason, very good at selling things to the EU, though we're very fond of Mercs, Champagne and Camembert. In fact, none of the EU countries are that great at selling to each other, despite the single market, but they are all quite good at buying stuff from countries that aren't in the EU, except the UK, which sells more stuff to countries that aren't in the EU than it does to those that are in the EU, and in terms of balance of trade, more profitably so.
The truth is that the significant EU economies, including France, are virtually at a standstill. Macron is taking the government begging bowl to the people in order to try to get his reforms through, and breaking EU rules left,right and centre to do so. Even Germany is teetering on the brink of recession. Italy has been pretty much stagnant in GDP growth terms since the Euro was introduced, 17 odd years ago. The EU's GDP growth is shrinking in relative terms very quickly, far more so than the less regulatory US, in relation to the rest of the world and the east. To crown it, the EZ is perpetually teetering on the verge of economic meltdown, with an autistic structural deficit, unsustainable debt/GDP ratios in some countries, illegal surpluses in others, banks ridden by exposure to massive junk debts, budget deficits wherever you look, etc, etc, etc. The whole thing is a hideous mess.
Whether the no deal, deregulation consensus is daft or not I don't know, but its pretty clear that the EU/EZ one is. Indeed, it's difficult to see that there really is a consensus, except amongst the EU 'elites', who make even Mrs May's bizarre myopia look quite quaint.
Last edited:
Marchbanks
Hat and Beard member
Indeed, there are racists and xenophobes all over the EU who want to leave.
TPA
Trade: Tiger Paw
I couldn't agree more.
TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
This is really bad. It’s not just party before nation it’s their own jobs before everyone else’s jobs. Let’s see who they are.
“A string of junior shadow ministers have told the Guardian they are strongly opposed to the idea of a second referendum, which they fear would expose Labour to a vicious backlash in leave-voting constituencies”.
eternumviti
Insufficient privileges to reply.
What is the distinction between 'racists' and 'xenophobes'? Why do these people feel like they do? Do they really want to leave the EU, or would they like to see the EU reformed, more democratic, more responsive to their concerns?
davidsrsb
pfm Member
I find it funny when some of the Tory leavers go on about Singapore, with a high GDP per capita.
Singapore manages a high GDP per head by having nearly 1.5 million foreign workers. When you factor in the overseas population of their families, this represents nearly as many people as the official population.
Singapore manages a high GDP per head by having nearly 1.5 million foreign workers. When you factor in the overseas population of their families, this represents nearly as many people as the official population.
wyjsar
Nothing but heart
Labour needs to start making the right moves first!
richardg
Admonishtrator
All countries cited as examples have little in common with UK. But what they have in common with each other vs UK is that they are less shackled.
richardg
Admonishtrator
Lol. Indeed. Last time the socialists went centrist, they ended up massacring loads of people in the middle East. Nice.
drummerman
pfm Member
They will still be able to recruit the necessary skills/labour from abroad if those are not available within the UK.
Where is the problem?
eternumviti
Insufficient privileges to reply.
A campaign has begun in Germany to try to pursuade the British not to leave the Union. A letter to The Times today from Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer, Merkel's successor
"Their affectionate letter to The Times marks a significant shift in Berlin’s tone. It argues that the two countries share an indissoluble bond thanks to Britain’s role in rebuilding Germany after the Second World War. “Without your great nation, this continent would not be what it is today: a community defined by freedom and prosperity,” it says. “Should Britain wish to leave the European Union for good, it will always have friends in Germany and Europe.
“But Britons should equally know that we believe that no choice is irreversible. Our door will always remain open: Europe is home. We would miss the legendary British black humour and going to the pub after work hours to drink an ale. We would miss tea with milk and driving on the left-hand side of the road. And we would miss seeing the panto at Christmas. But more than anything else, we would miss the British people — our friends across the Channel. We would miss Britain as part of the European Union, especially in these troubled times. Therefore Britons should know: from the bottom of our hearts, we want them to stay.”
The German letter was also signed by Andrea Nahles, leader of the Social Democrats, Mrs Merkel’s coalition partners, and Annalena Baerbock and Robert Habeck, heads of the Green party, which lies second in the polls. Among other signatories are leading business figures, including the chairman of Daimler, the chief executive of Airbus, and Dieter Kempf, president of the Federation of German Industries."
There was also an opinion piece by Dr Norbert Rottgen, who chairs the Bundestag's Foreign Affairs Committee, and who is organising the campaign.
Interesting that these German politicians refer to us as a 'great nation', and speak of the decisive part that the UK played in Europe's freedom. Quite refreshing after seeing almost three years of relentless declinism and contempt for the UK on the many pages of this thread.
"Their affectionate letter to The Times marks a significant shift in Berlin’s tone. It argues that the two countries share an indissoluble bond thanks to Britain’s role in rebuilding Germany after the Second World War. “Without your great nation, this continent would not be what it is today: a community defined by freedom and prosperity,” it says. “Should Britain wish to leave the European Union for good, it will always have friends in Germany and Europe.
“But Britons should equally know that we believe that no choice is irreversible. Our door will always remain open: Europe is home. We would miss the legendary British black humour and going to the pub after work hours to drink an ale. We would miss tea with milk and driving on the left-hand side of the road. And we would miss seeing the panto at Christmas. But more than anything else, we would miss the British people — our friends across the Channel. We would miss Britain as part of the European Union, especially in these troubled times. Therefore Britons should know: from the bottom of our hearts, we want them to stay.”
The German letter was also signed by Andrea Nahles, leader of the Social Democrats, Mrs Merkel’s coalition partners, and Annalena Baerbock and Robert Habeck, heads of the Green party, which lies second in the polls. Among other signatories are leading business figures, including the chairman of Daimler, the chief executive of Airbus, and Dieter Kempf, president of the Federation of German Industries."
There was also an opinion piece by Dr Norbert Rottgen, who chairs the Bundestag's Foreign Affairs Committee, and who is organising the campaign.
Interesting that these German politicians refer to us as a 'great nation', and speak of the decisive part that the UK played in Europe's freedom. Quite refreshing after seeing almost three years of relentless declinism and contempt for the UK on the many pages of this thread.
drummerman
pfm Member
Don't worry, there won't be one.
There's a lot of scope for a Venn diagram there.
I beg to differ. I give you Ireland. The amount of food that goes through this place is nobody's business. They are doing very nicely thank you out of it.
- Status