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Oh Britain, what have you done (part ∞+12)?

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eternumviti said:
No. EU laws reach into verey aspect of our lives. My objections, along with those of millions of other people, are to those that extend far beyond standards and regulations necessary to facilitate freedom of trade and the broader sweep of labour laws, and the fact that they are created and enforced by two bodies that are not only far beyond the remit of the demos, but are political organisation devoted to a political end that is entirely antithetical to the wishes and interests of the sovereign nation state, and those of a significant proportion of the 550 million. This is a well rehearsed argument, and, like it or not, a truth.



I know what free means. I strongly believe that amongst the first duties of a sovereign nation state is to have control over its own borders. I also believe in the liberal movement of people/workers across those borders. As I said, it is a circle that is going to have to be squared during the forthcoming negotiations, and I certainly think that it can be, probably even under existing EU law. I am not nearly as confident that the current government will be capable of doing it fairly or in the best interests of the country. As to the mess that the country has fallen into, unfettered immigration - effectively open borders - must bear, I'm afraid, some proportion of the blame. This is something that many people are uncomfortable with, but it too is a truth.
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You can't say what EU laws you find objectional and you are in favour of free movement (with some caveats). For the sake of brevity can I say that if the above is the basis of wanting Brexit I find it completely underwhelming given the damage that will be caused.
 
TheDecameron said:
Yeah but it’s not a crash out but (I’m loving the new aviation analogies) ‘a managed glide path’ according to Penny Mordaunt at the controls ( BA Philosophy, Reading University). You can be sure Penny will land the economic plane better than any BoE Governor. Chin up!
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Ah yes ‘a managed glide path’ Brexitwings FL 0319:
The investigation determined that the crash was caused deliberately by the PM Theresa May who had previously been declared "unfit to work” May locked the cockpit door and initiated a controlled descent that continued until the aircraft impacted a mountainside.
 
PsB said:
It is. No backstop = no withdrawal agreement; it's that simple.
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The other thing people supposedly all for trade and sovereignty keep forgetting is that the backstop is not some EU plot or them being unreasonable but just how trade works.
 
jackbarron said:
Not to renegotiate the deal apparently. We can only unilaterally rescind A50 if we plan to Remain, according to a Times journalist.
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We are not allowed to do it in bad faith or as a negotiating ploy. But if we wanted to extend the deadline to have a referendum or general election then we have this right. Although I think this is moot as in any situation where we could reasonably rescind the EU would almost certainly support the idea. Also things like borders and the four freedoms cannot be fudged, this sort of thing definitely can.

At least that was my understanding.
 
With apologies to the likes pre-edit.

It is an interesting analogy as everyone could see out of the windows. People were desperately banging on the locked door. It must have been dreadful for the passengers.

Johnson, Davis, Cameron and chums had gone scheduled because Brexitwings; a budget airline did not have a first class cabin.
 
matthewr said:
We are not allowed to do it in bad faith or as a negotiating ploy. But if we wanted to extend the deadline to have a referendum or general election then we have this right. Although I think this is moot as in any situation where we could reasonably rescind the EU would almost certainly support the idea. Also things like borders and the four freedoms cannot be fudged, this sort of thing definitely can.

At least that was my understanding.
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I think this is a mistaken interpretation. We can extend the Art50 period by (unanimous EU27) consent, or we can unilaterally withdraw the notification, but we can’t unilaterally extend the period.
 
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ff1d1l said:
Actual text of the lecture is here. Anyone with any interest in the current meltdown should read it.
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And yet it matters not one jot. Some of us believe it and some don’t no-amount of argument will change those beliefs.
What is even odder is that whatever happens both sides will say they were proved right.
The ‘book’ about this period particularly the psychology will be fascinating.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
I think this is a mistaken interpretation. We can extend the Art50 period by (unanimous EU27) consent, or we can unilaterally withdraw the notification, but we can’t unilaterally extend the period.
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I think this is right - but the EU27 would be likely to facilitate extension if it was for a referendum, or a GE with remain/leave a central issue.
 
So there is no plan B. Just run the clock down and hope the panic makes everyone fall in line behind May.

"Beth Rigby‏Verified account @BethRigby
Just putting this out there: Cabinet minister told me y'day they were 80% sure that May would, in the end, get her deal thru. Why/how? EU will give her something but will wait to the last minute. DUP will eventually come on boardand wavering Brexit rebels fold in face of No-Deal"

And if that doesn't happen...
 
droodzilla said:
Go on then, state some. Concrete examples. Don’t worry about going over old ground; neither you, nor any of the other advocates for Brexit, could provide any first time round.
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SteveS1 said:
Without the evidence there is no truth, it's just religious belief. Which is what I rather suspected.
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I'm sorry, Steves & Drood, but I am simply not going to get drawn down this route. It is a technique that people here (and undoubtedly elsewhere) have used repeatedly throughout this debate, one of drawing the debate off tangent over some or another micro-detail, and then devoting pages to pulling that apart rather than conceding any points on the wider picture. It is a distraction, chicanery, a feint. The obsession with minute technocratic detail has much relevance to the progression of the agreements being drawn up, or not, by the negotiating parties in Brussels and Westminster, but is really beyond the broader debate which lies at the heart of Brexit and the vote to leave the EU.

The EU has progressed from an economic partnership to a vast supranational entity, the tentacles of which, for better or for worse (by which I mean both) intrude into, or exist within, almost every aspect of our lives in the form of some 22,000 laws and regulations that have been passed into law in this country with either little, or more ususally no (statutory instruments) debate in our parliament. A great many, indeed a majority of, people throughout the EU are unhappy with the degree to which power has progressively gravitated towards the (unaccountable) centre, and away from the formerly (democratically accountable) sovereign entities, and would like to see either some degree of legal independence revert to the nations, or a halt to further centralisation. The EU is unable to acknowledge this because the Imperium is written through its DNA, and sees the ONLY solution as the transfer of more power to the unaccountable centre. This is the dilemma that faces the European peoples, and lies at the heart and core of the situation in which the UK, anyway always an outsider, finds itself now.

You can acknowledge this, or not. It remains, however, a deep truth which no amount of distraction over narrow, pettifogging detail will change.
 
eternumviti said:
<snip>

I know what free means. I strongly believe that amongst the first duties of a sovereign nation state is to have control over its own borders. I also believe in the liberal movement of people/workers across those borders. As I said, it is a circle that is going to have to be squared during the forthcoming negotiations, and I certainly think that it can be, probably even under existing EU law. I am not nearly as confident that the current government will be capable of doing it fairly or in the best interests of the country. As to the mess that the country has fallen into, unfettered immigration - effectively open borders - must bear, I'm afraid, some proportion of the blame. This is something that many people are uncomfortable with, but it too is a truth.
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Another "truth" stated with a nice dollop of faux-regret but no evidence. Care to elaborate?
 
It will be the detail that affects people's lives.

No surprise that you are not keen to engage on it. Keep that broad brush distraction going while the UK burns. You are Paul Daniels I claim my £5.
 
eternumviti said:
I intrude into, or exist within, almost every aspect of our lives in the form of some 22,000 laws and regulations that have been passed into law in this country with either little, or more ususally no (statutory instruments) debate in our parliament.
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If we have any intention of trading with anyone beyond this episode self harm - there will be little or no change to any of that. <shakes head>

Two types of country outside the main trading blocks in a global world, small players and those who haven't faced up to it yet.
 
SteveS1 said:
Without the evidence there is no truth, it's just religious belief. Which is what I rather suspected.
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Specific to this post, no, you are wrong. Without evidence it may well be impossible to secure the facts, but that doesn't mean that there aren't truths. I fear that sometimes you people can't see the truths for the facts that stand in the way.
 
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