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Fitting SME-3009 II imp to my TD-150 mkII

Update on this grounding. I am not doing anything else on this until I get some expert advice from you guys.

Here is the current setup:
There is a ground running from the SME cartridge screw/head/tube right through to the earth terminal on the amplifier (measures 4 ohms or so)

However there is no earth at all on the actual TD-150 sub-chassis etc - surely there should be one for safety? If so where?

Also, the manual for the SME shows earth connections at the amplifier end of the RCA leads? I don't have that, should I?
 
Sorry Tony, I was typing my update while you were replying!!

The 3009 is not grounded to the deck anywhere. Checked visually and with multimeter.
The ground runs from arm to the earth on my amp (Creek Destiny with onboard phono card).

The TT only has a two-core mains cable and so there is no earth anywhere. Your advice would be to change over to a 3-core mains cable and to earth the chassis on the TD-150 to mains? Correct?
 
The TT only has a two-core mains cable and so there is no earth anywhere. Your advice would be to change over to a 3-core mains cable and to earth the chassis on the TD-150 to mains? Correct?

Yes, that is certainly what I’d do, both for electrical safety and to sink static.

I don’t understand why you are reading 4 Ohms on the earth between the headshell and amp connector - is there maybe an issue with the arm-wiring? I just checked mine and it is 0.1-ish, i.e. way down at the rounding error of the meter.
 
I’d try putting a decent three core mains lead on the TD-150. I don’t know the design well enough to suggest where to attach it, but there will be a bolt somewhere that will give continuity to both the motor case and top-plate. It is certainly easy enough to do on a TD-124, and it definitely makes a difference. I’d be temted to take a thin wire to the subchassis too if that is isolated as grounding the main bearing makes a huge impact on statically charged vinyl giving it a path to ground that isn’t through the stylus/arm.
 
Thanks Tony, that seems to have fixed it!
I've fitted a decent 3-core mains to the TT. Attached mains earth to a screw on the sub-chassis.
Hum is gone and all TT parts seem to be correctly earthed to mains, with arm separately earthed to amp.

Thanks again!
 
Glad to hear that you've sorted the ground hum issue.

I'm no electrical safety expert, however, I'd avoid using 3-core grounded mains leads with metal chassis turntables. There is a reason why these are typically fitted with double insulated 2-core; in part, having to do with the possibility of plugging the appliance into an improperly wired mains socket. With the metal chassis isolated from the mains there is little risk of electric shock to the person handling/operating same.

With the original 2-core mains lead, the flying ground lead at the tonearm end of the SME cable is connected to the underside of the top plate at Lug 1 (see manual pg. 8) and (importantly) bridged to the sub-chassis from Lug 1 to Lug E (as were the original factory fitted Thorens tonearms, described below). Wired as such, with the ground lead at the other end of the SME cable connected to chassis ground on the amplifier, the outcome should be a quiet, hum free experience; otherwise, a wiring fault within the tonearm, and/or the tonearm lead and/or a poor electrical connection at the arm to cable ground socket is/are indicated.

The TD-150 pictured below still has the factory terminal strip bolted to the underside of the metal top plate via Lugs 1 & 2, and there are two tag end ground wires connected to the lower (rear) Lug 1; one being the ground wire from the Thorens tonearm, the other grey insulated wire connecting to the sub-chassis via Lug E, the latter just out of frame (Lug 1 being the common electrical connection to the metal top plate of the plinth). With classic Thorens tonearms there exists a wire link connection between Lug 1 and the negative/shield terminal of the RH channel external arm lead (the same tonearm grounding arrangement as copied by Lustré/Rega, only incorporated into the plug within the arm pillar of those models).

To bypass the terminal strip entirely, as is the case with fitting an SME with stock arm lead, the SME tonearm plug-end flying ground must be connected to to the metal chassis (via Lug 1, as it is conveniently located) and then on to the sub-chassis (via a short wire from Lug 1 on to Lug E on the rear arm of the sub-chassis).

UL0OvQf.jpg
 
I’d be interested in hearing a qualified electrician’s view on that one as, whilst I fully understand what you are saying, surely it would brand the vast majority of kit theoretically dangerous. Just about everything from Quad, Leak etc, plus vintage guitar amps such as Marshall, Fender, Vox etc will have a common case earth in exactly the same way. I see no logical difference between the way that Thorens (and my TD-124) is earthed to say a Leak Stereo 20 or Quad 303. If you plugged any of these into a illegally wired mains socket the case could go live. I’d have expected that to be the case for any metal-cased equipment. Would something like a current Naim or Sugden amp be any different?

I’m genuinely curious as to the legal situation here as I’d hate to give people bad advice.
 
@Craig B Very interesting and thanks for the input.

I will read this all through again in the morning, and have another look at things.

@Tony L Everything I am doing is very definitely at my own risk!! But if there I would be interested in other people's opinions on this area.
 
I did say that I was no electrical safety expert!

I have been near electrocuted twice in my lifetime due to faulty electrical wiring in rental digs though; the second time whilst climbing out of a tall cast iron bath tub with six inches of water still in. I had lost my balance and stopped my fall by placing my hand on the wall above the bathroom sink. Being 6'5", my right foot was still in the tub. Unfortunately, my hand caught the pull chain of the light fixture above the sink and it was live. If the jolt hadn't sent me flying out of the tub and halfway through the wall the other side, I wouldn't be here boring you now; and all this on our lowly 120V mains with a 15amp fuse on the lighting circuit (no mandatory RCDs in homes back then).

Anyway, I did get interrupted before putting the final touches to the above blog and I wanted to tie the info together wrt the following...

Stock Thorens 2-core mains lead equals tonearm earthed to both top plate and sub-chassis.

vs.

DIY 3-core mains lead (with ground to turntable chassis) equals keep tonearm electrically isolated from either chassis, but do expect some 'handling hum' when cueing records if you happen to rest your right hand or finger(s) on the plinth top, and/or rest your left hand in the vicinity of the on/off switch, for stability whilst doing so.

With respect to the latter arrangement especially, always test mains sockets for correct polarity before plugging in, as there exists no safety fuse at the socket in many countries and, unlike with amplifiers, no mains fuse within the turntable itself; therefore, you would be entrusting your safety to a distant >=15amp mains fuse or MCB (the latter <=100amps in North America).

And, for the love of (insert preferred deity here), don't under any circumstances attempt to cue your records whilst in the tub!:eek:
 
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There is no excuse for incorrect mains wiring. As I understand it under current legislation only qualified electricians are allowed to install or modify mains supplies, so any landlord guilty of renting a dangerous house could be sued to hell and back and I’d take them for everything they had.

My point is given such faulty/illegal wiring you’d likely have blown a fuse/got a jolt/started a fire long before getting to cue your record deck as every other metal case component would be live too!

I strongly recommend everyone owns a mains testing plug such as this one (countless similar alternatives available). Just plug it in and test the mains if you are moving anywhere new. I’ve had one for decades and thankfully never had anything but a safe reading anywhere I’ve lived.

PS I’d argue the original Thorens wiring was dangerous as if one of the mains connectors came loose and touched the top-plate the only path to ground is via the very thin and flimsy arm-earth lead and we don’t know what phono stage is at the end of it, e.g. it may be powered by a 9v wall wart or whatever with no earth pin, and then you are gambling on finding earth via the amp’s RCA signal return. As such there is a chance the ring main circuit breaker wouldn’t trip and you have a potentially leathal fail condition even with perfectly legal and safe house wiring. The more I think about this one the more I am convinced I am right.
 
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@Craig B Can I clarify something on that picture? It looks to me like the red-ground from the arm is being earthed from lug2? Maybe I am confusing the term "lug". Can you clarify please?
Here is my attempt at it text form!

Grey+++++++yellow-----4
Grey----------GND-------3

Grey----------GND-------2 <<<<<<-----this goes to earth - correct?
Grey++++++++red+++++1

Also, that is a great point about UK electrics versus the rest of the world. You're right, most of us are talking about the UK with the regs etc we have - around the world your mileage will vary hugely!!

Ah, the manual explains all:
Screenshot%202018-12-19%20at%2010.37.01.png
Screenshot%202018-12-19%20at%2010.42.48.png
 
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There is no excuse for incorrect mains wiring. As I understand it under current legislation only qualified electricians are allowed to install or modify mains supplies, so any landlord guilty of renting a dangerous house could be sued to hell and back and I’d take them for everything they had.

Agreed, however, the property in question had original fitment 'knob and tube' wiring which has long since been made illegal; so, not so much a case of incorrect wiring as it was unsafe to begin with starting well before WWI.

As Paul mentioned above, regs do vary widely around the world; I'd only add that it is often 'enforcement' that is the real problem. Over here in Ontario, for example, I am free to run a new spur to my hi-fi, however, the onus is on me to have a qualified electrician check my work and perform the final connection to the consumer unit. Plenty of DIY home improvement types ignore this and wire all straight into their electrical box. The missing link here, relative to your UK regs, is that it is our insurance companies that have become the unofficial enforcer of the Ontario Electrical Safety Code regs; with 'enforcement' generally coming in the form of a mailed out questionnaire/voluntary statement of compliance which a given homeowner might decided to fill out incorrectly should he/she need to buy time before being able to pay out the many thousands of dollars for a full electrical upgrade. IOW, admitting to 'knob and tube' equals insurance policy cancellation should the owner fail to get the property to be in compliance within a very short time period (30 days for new buyers, which is virtually impossible). I personally know of a half-dozen or so homeowners that lied to their insurance companies for years whilst saving up for the inevitable electrical upgrade; all the while quietly praying that they didn't have need to make a claim that might result in an insurance inspector coming round. Thankfully, such homes are becoming more of a rarity these days.

My point is given such faulty/illegal wiring you’d likely have blown a fuse/got a jolt/started a fire long before getting to cue your record deck as every other metal case component would be live too!

Over here ring mains are rare, with separate spurs to different floors/rooms and wall outlets vs. lights, etc. being the norm. As few as one or two outlets in an older rewired property could easily be on their own spur.

I strongly recommend everyone owns a mains testing plug such as this one (countless similar alternatives available). Just plug it in and test the mains if you are moving anywhere new. I’ve had one for decades and thankfully never had anything but a safe reading anywhere I’ve lived.

Before I even moved into my then new built house, I tested every outlet with one of these. All were fine wrt polarity and grounding, however, one was shorting as the contractors typically employ the nasty push through 'QuickWire' connections, rather than the more time consuming screw terminals (common garden variety electrical sockets generally have both types over here). I reconnected the lot of them via the screw terminals.

inserting-wire-into-Quickwire.jpg



PS I’d argue the original Thorens wiring was dangerous as if one of the mains connectors came loose and touched the top-plate the only path to ground is via the very thin and flimsy arm-earth lead and we don’t know what phono stage is at the end of it, e.g. it may be powered by a 9v wall wart or whatever with no earth pin, and then you are gambling on finding earth via the amp’s RCA signal return. As such there is a chance the ring main circuit breaker wouldn’t trip and you have a potentially leathal fail condition even with perfectly legal and safe house wiring. The more I think about this one the more I am convinced I am right.

I wouldn't argue against this, however, I think your argument should include Ariston, Linn, and Systemdek, amongst others.
 
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This thread definitely took a slightly different path to the one I was expecting :)

I asked this question on a pure "UK electricians" forum I sometimes use, and I think the summary there was that it was safer to have the earth to mains in this case - note: UK forum.

I have learnt a lot here, and I am going to leave my 3-core mains cable, with a good earth to the sub-chassis.
I have no ground-loop hum so I am happy all round.
 


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