Corbyn sceptics, what do you think of him now (part II)?

[pure sound]

Or is this just me? Did I just miss his support? Did the media just not cover it?

To be fair, the media probably did cover it a little more than Theresa May's almost non-existent contributions (which given her responsibility for immigration might, back then, have actually carried some weight)

 

[merlin]

True.

Historically the Beeb has been portrayed as having a left wing bias but, in this century we've undoubtedly seen a coup.

I traditionally relied on the Beeb too but now I find it quite shocking in it's portrayal of politics in particular. Just widen your horizons with something equally biased to the left. That's what I try to do.

It seems a shame that I can no longer use the BBC as a reliable source of news. They built a reputation over decades and appear to have fatally damaged it in less than a decade.

 

[Tony L]

It is only the BBC news and current affairs that have been infiltrated by Tory power-brokers and activists, the rest of the station's output remains far more balanced and sensible.

 

[Seanm]

Right. it's starting to whiff of too much gamesmanship now and his appeal is / was that he was totally transparent.

It's difficult to frame this as gamesmanship, although you could argue that we were promised a new way of doing things, and this is very much the old way of doing things - by which I mean it's unremarkable stuff. If those who voted for the amendment had campaigned, personally, on the promise that they would push to remain in the Single Market, then fair enough. But they can't expect to remain on the front bench having voted against an important manifesto commitment, and against the whip.

 

[Rosie]

That's not a principle. They were sacked for voting against the whip and against the manifesto on which they were elected a matter of weeks ago.

The Dear Leader said he would allow and encourage disagreement within the cabinet .

 

[Seanm]

Well you might be right there, ha ha, as I do largely, plus a bit of CH4.

Though I've heard both left and right criticise the Beeb for being 'partisan'. They can't both be correct!

Right on political stuff, left on social and cultural stuff. Annoying everyone! Ultimately, though, that mix sums up the dominant (but dead!) right wing consensus (go on then, have yer gay marriage, but don't moan about the zero hours contracts), so lefties have more reason to be annoyed.

I actually get more annoyed about the BBC's cultural programming than its political coverage, which has always been awful. Their music docs are all advertorials, and the art stuff, Jesus.

 

[droodzilla]

Leave was a huge issue to me, in that it was the absolutely last thing that I wanted. That's what my criticism and lingering resentment is focused on I guess, he didn't seem (or was not seen to be) very much behind the remain campaign.

Or is this just me? Did I just miss his support? Did the media just not cover it?

Mostly down to a lack of media coverage. The Cameron-Johnson psychodrama was more compelling to our personality obsessed news. There may have been an element of softly softly, at least as far as Corbyn was concerned, because it was believed a "road to Damascus" style conversion to the EU cause would not be seen as credible by the electorate.

Personally, I think JC's message and tone was about right for his intended audience: i.e. the EU isn't perfect but it's our best bet for protecting workers rights and the environment. Unfortunately, the EU referendum campaign was not a place for nuance.

 

[TPA]

The Dear Leader said he would allow and encourage disagreement within the cabinet .

This is where theory and reality meet. Which begs the question of how valid the rest of his beliefs might be when tested.

 

[Gaius]

Leave was a huge issue to me, in that it was the absolutely last thing that I wanted. That's what my criticism and lingering resentment is focused on I guess, he didn't seem (or was not seen to be) very much behind the remain campaign.

Or is this just me? Did I just miss his support? Did the media just not cover it?

No, that is my recollection, there seemed to be no real Remain Campaign from JC. In part that's how they got away with it. Shameful and tragic.

 

[maxflinn]

The Dear Leader said he would allow and encourage disagreement within the cabinet .

This is where theory and reality meet. Which begs the question of how valid the rest of his beliefs might be when tested.

He said this before Labour created its manifesto. All voices were heard, it was formed after all had their say, and 13 million people voted on the basis of it.

This manifesto is now Labour policy and Corbyn is right to protect it, by dismissing shadow cabinet members if necessary.

 

[Stunsworth]

Sacking people for not voting with the Tories. Nice one Jezza.

 

[ks.234]

Yes ! Well 7 out of 10 remain !

And what's wrong with that?

Are we not permitted a nuanced attitude to Europe. Do we have to be uncritical, flag waving Europhiles or Rabid Leavers?

Can't we be critical of the EU but feel very strongly that the benefits outweigh the faults, can't we believe that, on balance, we would be far worse off out of Europe?

Can we not have a considered point of view?

Can we not come to a conclusion based on a balance of evidence?

Are we so simple minded that we get confused if our politicians consider both sides of an issue?

Are we only capable of following 'conviction' politics?

 

[jont]

He hasn't made an error. The EU Referendum vote was to Leave and Corbyn is playing a long game.

A general election might happen in the not too distant future. Labour could go into that and say although they were against Brexit, they have tried to implement the EU Referendum result. However things have changed economically and politically in the interim.

Labour could then offer a second Referendum if they got into power. It was never clear which version of Brexit was voted for in the first one, because the Leave campaign ran on contradictions and lies.

Offering a second Referendum would ensure a proper democratic decision is finally made. This is preferable to some sloppy whinge that we don't like the result and will scupper it, which is what Umunna did yesterday.

The majority of people who voted in the Referendum wanted to Leave. I wasn't one of them. Labour and the Tories have to live with this for the moment. So do the SNP and Lib Dems.

Umunna's amendment was moronic. But then he affiliates himself with the Blairite Progress group, which is trying to tear Corbyn and the socialists apart.

Umunna is one of last people I would trust in Labour. Perhaps he should do the decent thing and join the Lib Dems. I don't think he would get away with being Scottish, but it wouldn't surprise me if he tried.

Jack

It was an in out referendum, your comments on this sounds very much like the lib dem position, (keep having a vote until you get the vote you like) the electorate was clear about how it felt about the lib dem position on that during the GE.
Your stance on this is what makes politics and politicians so untrustworthy and devisive in the publics conscience. Playing the long game overturning the vote by means foul or fair.... look back at your comments..
Chuka umuuna was upfront and honest and open to scrutiny, even though many might agree or disagree with what he did.
And how would a second referendum be more democratic than the first as you suggest, it's a very twisted logic....!! if the vote was to remain and the leave vote was trying to undermine it in the way your suggesting, you would be the first person up in arms complaining saying it was undemocratic and that's what's so transparent (yet you fail to see it) and frustrating about your comments. It really is time for people who take this position too move on.

 

[Mullardman]

And what's wrong with that?

Are we not permitted a nuanced attitude to Europe. Do we have to be uncritical, flag waving Europhiles or Rabid Leavers?

Can't we be critical of the EU but feel very strongly that the benefits outweigh the faults, can't we believe that, on balance, we would be far worse off out of Europe?

Can we not have a considered point of view?

Can we not come to a conclusion based on a balance of evidence?

Are we so simple minded that we get confused if our politicians consider both sides of an issue?

Are we only capable of following 'conviction' politics?

Well.. Yes.. and No..

 

[Lee T]

It was an in out referendum, your comments on this sounds very much like the lib dem position, (keep having a vote until you get the vote you like) the electorate was clear about how it felt about the lib dem position on that during the GE.
Your stance on this is what makes politics and politicians so untrustworthy and devisive in the publics conscience. Playing the long game overturning the vote by means foul or fair.... look back at your comments..
Chuka umuuna was upfront and honest and open to scrutiny, even though many might agree or disagree with what he did.
And how would a second referendum be more democratic than the first as you suggest, it's a very twisted logic....!! if the vote was to remain and the leave vote was trying to undermine it in the way your suggesting, you would be the first person up in arms complaining saying it was undemocratic and that's what's so transparent (yet you fail to see it) and frustrating about your comments. It really is time for people who take this position too move on.

There will be no second referendum, no party will want to be associated with one.
It ended Cameron's political career.

 

[tqineil]

No, that is my recollection, there seemed to be no real Remain Campaign from JC. In part that's how they got away with it. Shameful and tragic.

He did more than most though not as many as first reported.

This from a FACT check site
"Jeremy led from the front in the EU referendum campaign. He made the positive case for remaining and reforming the EU up and down the country.

"His activity included:

10 EU rallies, with speeches and meetings in London, Bristol, Stroud, Newquay, Perranporth, Cardiff, Blackpool, Bournemouth, Liverpool, Runcorn, Manchester, Truro, Sheffield, Widnes, Doncaster, Rotherham, Hastings, Brighton, Dundee, Aberdeen and Birmingham.
These included a meeting with student nurses in Birmingham, a factory in Runcorn, a clean beaches event in Truro and campaigning with activists in Scotland.
Launched the Labour In bus and the Ad Van.
A debate on Sky News with Faisal Islam, also talked about the EU on the Agenda and the Last Leg. Appeared on the Andrew Marr show twice and on Peston on Sunday.
Written two op-eds, one in the Observer and another in The Mirror.
Reached more than 10 million people on social media.
Six statements to the House of Commons and 10 PMQs on the EU.
He has been consistent on this issue from day one of his leadership, issuing a statement in September that “Labour will be campaigning in the referendum for the UK to stay in the European Union”."

 

[Romulus]

I recall Labour officially anouncing their vote to remain in EU but I do not recollect any visible or audible support or enthusiasm from JC to remain. I think at the time he was nervous of the outcome and sensitive of any associations he may have depending on the outcome of the result of the national vote.

 

[tqineil]

aye, let's all blame him then

 

[Tony L]

It was an in out referendum, your comments on this sounds very much like the lib dem position, (keep having a vote until you get the vote you like) the electorate was clear about how it felt about the lib dem position on that during the GE.

I'm not sure that is quite correct. To my mind, and speaking as a long-term Lib Dem voter, I'm sure a lot of us were so repulsed by the sheer arrogance, corruption and incompetence of the Tory government and grasped the only real anti-Tory vote was Labour. There are a few seats in the country where it makes sense to vote Lib Dem, but mine certainly isn't one of them. I voted Labour to stop pig-headed Tory austerity and to soften their impending Brexit disaster. I still fully support the Lib Dem's stance on Brexit, I just couldn't afford to waste a vote in what is a hopelessly stacked and biased system. All one can really do under our political system at present is to vote tactically against the Tories, anything else has no more value than spoiling the paper!

 

[Rosie]

I'm not sure that is quite correct. To my mind, and speaking as a long-term Lib Dem voter, I'm sure a lot of us were so repulsed by the sheer arrogance, corruption and incompetence of the Tory government and grasped the only real anti-Tory vote was Labour. There are a few seats in the country where it makes sense to vote Lib Dem, but mine certainly isn't one of them. I voted Labour to stop pig-headed Tory austerity and to soften their impending Brexit disaster. I still fully support the Lib Dem's stance on Brexit, I just couldn't afford to waste a vote in what is a hopelessly stacked and biased system. All one can really do under our political system at present is to vote tactically against the Tories, anything else has no more value than spoiling the paper!

Totally agree . it is the first past the post electoral system that has created both the modern Tory Party and Labour Party . Both are their own coalitions of chaos .