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Corbyn sceptics, what do you think of him now (part II)?

I don't understand you. There is hard brexit and soft brexit in most people's eyes.

Those will be the 'most people' who are choosing to ignore what is actually on offer. If you can point me toward any EU negotiator report that suggests a 'cake and eat it' deal for some sort of membership, I'm all ears.
 
This is all true, but that doesn't make Labour's position (essentially limit FoM in some unspecified way while retaining unfettered access to the single market) any more realistic than BoJo's "cake and eat it" line. It is essentially the same UK-centric view of the issue, and were Labour in power it would fail for the same reason.

I agree but I get the impression that both main parties are wary of losing the UKIP vote by being frank and honest about the Brexit situation at this time.

I think 12 or 24 months down the line, when the reality of the issues has started to impact the core voters of all parties, a different approach will be possible. At this particular point, I rather suspect that the offering of a second referendum or the suggestion that Brexit does not mean Brexit would cost both parties any chance of an electoral victory - bizarre as that seems to someone like me.
 
Adam, you have misunderstood the culture. When JC followed his principles, defied whips, campaigned against the leadership - it was couragious and dignified class heroism.

If anyone does that now that he is leader, they are disloyal scum who should fvck off to the Tories where they belong.

It's known as the 'Hypocritic' oath. :)

The significant difference is when JC defied the whip imsmc it made no real difference.
All the Blairite MPs that undermined his leadership in the election campaign might have cost Labour victory .
Hard to see how it didn't cost the PLP seats.
 
Interesting turn of direction for JC.

Even Tom Watson is defending him, instead of sharpening the knife for Umunna.

Corbyn knows what he is doing. An educated guess is he hopes May will bodge the deal and the final Bexit bill will be turned down by Parliament. The UK leaving EU will then stall, if it happens at all.

In the meantime the wishes of the majority of the EU Referendumers need to be carried out. That is how democracy works. If the wheels fall off in the process, so be it. It was a shit idea to begin with and typical of the Tories.

Jack
 
I think he has made an error. By not opposing the Tories he has shackled Labour to the impending Brexit economic disaster. It would have been far smarter to let the Tories own that one alone. He certainly shouldn't have applied a whip, it should have been a free-vote allowing Labour MPs to vote with their constituencies, which differ greatly, rather than forcing a party-line. One of the dumbest moves he's made to date IMHO.
 
Even Tom Watson is defending him, instead of sharpening the knife for Umunna.

Corbyn knows what he is doing. An educated guess is he hopes May will bodge the deal and the final Bexit bill will be turned down by Parliament. The UK leaving EU will then stall, if it happens at all.

In the meantime the wishes of the majority of the EU Referendumers need to be carried out. That is how democracy works. If the wheels fall off in the process, so be it. It was a shit idea to begin with and typical of the Tories.

Jack

Tom Watson is supporting JC only becouse of the current momentum that labour is enjoying post election result, l wouldn't kid yourself about Tom Watson though, one day is a long time in Politics, and you do like to extrapolate your theory's somewhat.
 
I think he has made an error. By not opposing the Tories he has shackled Labour to the impending Brexit economic disaster. It would have been far smarter to let the Tories own that one alone. He certainly shouldn't have applied a whip, it should have been a free-vote allowing Labour MPs to vote with their constituencies, which differ greatly, rather than forcing a party-line. One of the dumbest moves he's made to date IMHO.

Agreed and said like it, without the usual spin.
 
Interesting turn of direction for JC.

I'll repeat here what I said in the 'Let the Brexit begin' thread:

See, this is what's so infuriating about Jeremy Corbyn. He is the best we have in party leaders at present but then he goes and does something monumentally stupid like this. It's maddening! :mad:
 
I think he has made an error. By not opposing the Tories he has shackled Labour to the impending Brexit economic disaster. It would have been far smarter to let the Tories own that one alone. He certainly shouldn't have applied a whip, it should have been a free-vote allowing Labour MPs to vote with their constituencies, which differ greatly, rather than forcing a party-line. One of the dumbest moves he's made to date IMHO.

The only logical conclusion, surely, is that Corbyn is in favour of Brexit? Jack might be right that he's hoping the Tories get a bad deal that Parliament votes down - but then we crash out without a deal, which is the worst of all worlds. No-one *knows* whether or not the UK can unilaterally revoke Article 50, so cancelling Brexit, even if politically possible, might not be practically possible. I think JC is at heart a Bennite Eurosceptic.
 
I'll repeat here what I said in the 'Let the Brexit begin' thread:

See, this is what's so infuriating about Jeremy Corbyn. He is the best we have in party leaders at present but then he goes and does something monumentally stupid like this. It's maddening! :mad:

No need to repeat nick I think people are agreeing with you.
It's disappointing.
 
I think he has made an error. By not opposing the Tories he has shackled Labour to the impending Brexit economic disaster. It would have been far smarter to let the Tories own that one alone. He certainly shouldn't have applied a whip, it should have been a free-vote allowing Labour MPs to vote with their constituencies, which differ greatly, rather than forcing a party-line. One of the dumbest moves he's made to date IMHO.

I tend to agree. However, it is a long & complex game...

https://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2017/06/when-capturing-middle-ground-works-or.html
 
I think he has made an error. By not opposing the Tories he has shackled Labour to the impending Brexit economic disaster. It would have been far smarter to let the Tories own that one alone. He certainly shouldn't have applied a whip, it should have been a free-vote allowing Labour MPs to vote with their constituencies, which differ greatly, rather than forcing a party-line. One of the dumbest moves he's made to date IMHO.

I think they were just trying to null that out of the election proposition, i.e., both parties on the same page reduces the risk if it back fires.
 
Can someone please explain what I have missed too? been working all day. has he just sacked people who voted against because they want us to stay in the single market?

And what does this mean from the Labour manifesto?

'We will scrap the Conservatives’ Brexit White Paper and replace it with fresh negotiating priorities that have a strong emphasis on retaining the benefits of the Single market and the Customs Union – which are essential for maintaining industries, jobs and businesses in Britain.'
 
He appears to have sacked from the front bench those who weren't following his leadership from what I can see.

Isn't that what you would expect a leader to do?

It's too early to play your hand on Brexit and pointless at this time. I think it's a politically sensible move showing that Corbyn feels comfortable in his position as leader and is content that he has sufficient backing.

When the time comes, fight the Brexit deal and demonstrate how damaging it is.
 
Can someone please explain what I have missed too? been working all day. has he just sacked people who voted against because they want us to stay in the single market?

And what does this mean from the Labour manifesto?

'We will scrap the Conservatives’ Brexit White Paper and replace it with fresh negotiating priorities that have a strong emphasis on retaining the benefits of the Single market and the Customs Union – which are essential for maintaining industries, jobs and businesses in Britain.'
According to Newsnight even many of the Labour MPs who support Remain are annoyed with Chuka Ummuna's amendment. There was already an amendment based on the bit of the manifesto you cite (whatever it means) so Ummuna's intervention was seen as unnecessary and an unwelcome distraction.

I think Labour are in a bind over Brexit because they're trying to appeal to two very different groups of voters. I believe they're trying to artfully avoid setting out a position that's too explicit in the hope that the electorate gradually come to see Brexit as a bad idea (so, eg, a second referendum could be seen as legitimate) - hopefully before we crash out of the EU. It might not be the most principled approach but I can see why the Labour Party has adopted it (if it has!).
 
We've already covered that. He is, or at least was. And leopards & spots etc...

He still very much is and labours policy is a hard brexit and he is definitely partly (amongst many other reasons) to blame for being in this mess.
Disharmony in the ranks of the JC paradise already.
 


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