Parlour trick

[tonerei]

FWIW I may have worded that a little more strongly than I intended. Reading it back it looks a little aggressive, which was not intended. I also perhaps need to state that I am certainly not arguing for Nordost here, my experience of that company is limited to trying one interconnect way back in the 90s which a friend owned or had borrowed from somewhere. I remember I didn't like it, I felt it sounded too bright/cold in my system compared to whatever I was using (probably DIY Naim Aro arm cable at that point). Aside from that I have zero dog in the race. I'm just challenging bias really, just the opposite bias to which is normally challenged!

Don't think so really Tony it is fairly balanced and on the money with regard to peoples general approach to the hobby. Your last point is very apt and when one realizes that as I have you just exit the discussions and leave them at it "As such I can't understand all the recursive huff and puff as neither side is ever going to accept the other's perspective."

 

[adamdea]

Tony
You do get why the big display of the volume is neither here nor there? You and Alan Sircom are unintentionally doing a great job of demonstrating its potential force as a misdirection.

I have no idea whether Dr aix was right or wrong, but my guess is that at future Nordost demos there are likely to be some audience members asking whether the demonstration can be done on the cd they have brought along.

 

[radamel]

FWIW I may have worded that a little more strongly than I intended. Reading it back it looks a little aggressive, which was not intended. I also perhaps need to state that I am certainly not arguing for Nordost here, my experience of that company is limited to trying one interconnect way back in the 90s which a friend owned or had borrowed from somewhere. I remember I didn't like it, I felt it sounded too bright/cold in my system compared to whatever I was using (probably DIY Naim Aro arm cable at that point). Aside from that I have zero dog in the race. I'm just challenging bias really, just the opposite bias to which is normally challenged!

PS I said upthread that I'd walked out of a Nordorst dem as I didn't especially like the sound, I think that is incorrect. Thinking back I'm pretty sure it was a spike/cone-like product, which may well have been Nordost-related, hence the confusion.

Like Tonerei I think it was pretty balanced and a great post.

Just for the sake of transparency I have no dog in this fight either as I've never owned any Nordost products nor did I even attend one of their demos.

 

[Whaleblue]

...doesn't add up why you would pay thousands on something when a few hundred would obviously do the job as the audible differences would be so small as to be insignificant,
...
Obviously, for some , it's all about the equipment rather than the music.

I paid some thousands for my Devialet D200 to gain the functionality and simplicity I was ultimately after.

I have a TT that I love the look and sound of. It gives me great pleasure to use it when I'm in the mood for not just sitting looking at the iPad.

I have a very cheap (by comparison) pair of speakers. However, I bought them having compared them to others that were in the thousands of pounds bracket. I also had personal reasons at this time to save that cash for use elsewhere, and will ultimately likely look to upgrade them.

I have, over the years, spent tens of thousands on music, in the form of CDs and LPs.

I've now signed up for Roon and Tidal. So my music spend will drop significantly, yet I can listen to all the stuff I want to. Should save enough for the speaker upgrade after a while

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

I would love it if Jim's vision corresponded with commercial reality.

Well, the choice is in our hands as the users and purchasers of things. My point is that we could perhaps have the *option* to get the same sort of results far more cheaply, and hence more widely useable *if* that's what we wish.

As per my comment about Lamborgini, there may be people who want to pay more for other reasons. Again, that's their choice if they have the money and wish to do so.

That would mean informed choice for both types of customer or enthusiast.

 

[BE718]

You seem governed entirely by your entrenched view that no AB dem of a mains lead can possibly be legitimate, not even one with a huge great public display of the volume level etc. I very much doubt anyone could provide a test that could overcome your incredible degree of expectation bias short of a full blind ABX (i.e. not telling you it was even a cable being demmed as that would trigger your bias). This is just not how the audio community works as the overwhelming majority of audiophiles simply do not feel comfortable in such an alien environment, nor wish to be tested by wannabe scientists over something as trivial as a purchasing decision. You prefer to shout accusations of 'fixing' etc than conceed there may actually be a difference that some people may be able to hear. As such I can't understand all the recursive huff and puff as neither side is ever going to accept the other's perspective.

Not at all, Im just waiting for some objective evidence to show it does!

My expectation bias will be instantly overcome when someone does......until then......


No sorry all that is just poor excuses from audiophile community to escape from their aural acuity being tested.

I havent actually shouted anything. I havent accused Nordorst of fixing the test, I just reported what someone else observed, however yes I find the report entirely beleivable considering the amount of audiophile nonsnese that is peddled.

I have just pointed out the bleedin obvious that Nordorst had no need to resort to legal action, all they had to do was demonstrate their product and test is genuine by conducting an independently scrutinised test.

We both know they wont, even though there is no reason why if their product works as claimed - you know, the difference is significant enough to hear in a hifi show in an unfamiliar room with unfamiliar acoustics with unfamiliar equipment and unfamiliar music in a breif exposure. You know all those factors which supposedly prevent audiophiles from discerning differences......


Its pretty comic really. So the audiophile apparently can hear the difference at a show in the circumstances above, yet do the same under controlled conditions when they cant see or know what is being done and they go all apoplectic and get so stressed they go deaf....really...

BTW, with your comments in this thread you seem very much part of "the recursive huff and puff" and are most certainly taking a side here. mine is a legitimate POV and you seem to be objecting to it being presented.

 

[Tony L]

You do get why the big display of the volume is neither here nor there? You and Alan Sircom are unintentionally doing a great job of demonstrating its potential force as a misdirection.

No, I don't to be honest. It shows that the person doing the dem is not using the charlatan technique of riding the volume knob for their preferred option (and I have witnessed this in the past). In a straight AB dem between two things that shouldn't have different gain such as cables I want the volume knob left well alone, and from both Steve's and Alan's accounts this is what Nordorst do. Sure if you were a real con-artist you could fiddle this in a multitude of ways, e.g. not use the amp on show, fix the "bad" leads with hidden attenuators etc, but you are going to need a lot of very hard and incontrovertible evidence to accuse a likely perfectly decent and honourable manufacturer of such practice.

It appears from the descriptions given that the Nordorst dem was presented exactly how I would do such a thing myself, i.e. fit option A, play a CD, mute the amp by switching inputs or whatever, switch the cable to B, switch the input back to unmute and play the same track. It is actually easier with a modern preamp with a digital volume as you could mute and return it exactly whereas with the sort of kit I use I use the input selector to mute so as I don't need to touch the normally quite sensitive analogue volume control at all.

So, what have I missed that isn't right out there in the world of unsubstantiated conspiracy theory and potential libel?

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

I'd need to reread the disputed items again. But my impression was that the assertion was that something like changing the *source* levels was said to be happening. Which could change the output volume without having altered the amplifier gain.

 

[adamdea]

No, I don't to be honest. It shows that the person doing the dem is not using the charlatan technique of riding the volume knob for their preferred option (and I have witnessed this in the past). In a straight AB dem between two things that shouldn't have different gain such as cables I want the volume knob left well alone, and from both Steve's and Alan's accounts this is what Nordorst do. Sure if you were a real con-artist you could fiddle this in a multitude of ways, e.g. not use the amp on show, fix the "bad" leads with hidden attenuators etc, but you are going to need a lot of very hard and incontrovertible evidence to accuse a likely perfectly decent and honourable manufacturer of such practice.

It appears from the descriptions given that the Nordorst dem was presented exactly how I would do such a thing myself, i.e. fit option A, play a CD, mute the amp by switching inputs or whatever, switch the cable to B, switch the input back to unmute and play the same track. It is actually easier with a modern preamp with a digital volume as you could mute and return it exactly whereas with the sort of kit I use I use the input selector to mute so as I don't need to touch the normally quite sensitive analogue volume control at all.

So, what have I missed that isn't right out there in the world of unsubstantiated conspiracy theory and potential libel?

Have you read the DR Aix post which was withdrawn? I can't exactly say without repeating the post he was "asked" to take down, but the gist of it is that tracks of different amplitudes were played not that the volume control was ridden. It's not complicated. The original posts can still be found if you look.

 

[mattgbell]

No, I don't to be honest. It shows that the person doing the dem is not using the charlatan technique of riding the volume knob for their preferred option (and I have witnessed this in the past). In a straight AB dem between two things that shouldn't have different gain such as cables I want the volume knob left well alone, and from both Steve's and Alan's accounts this is what Nordorst do. Sure if you were a real con-artist you could fiddle this in a multitude of ways, e.g. not use the amp on show, fix the "bad" leads with hidden attenuators etc, but you are going to need a lot of very hard and incontrovertible evidence to accuse a likely perfectly decent and honourable manufacturer of such practice.

Bear in mind though that Waldrep had produced precisely that kind of evidence in the case of the marketing video for Audioquest HDMI cables just a few months previously, and that the CEO of Audioquest then went public to admit the video seemed to be rigged.

I linked to the details (including Bill Low's open letter to Stereophile) in my post #14 above.

One can well imagine that Waldrep, riding high on his success in exposing the Audioquest material, thought he could do the same with Nordost, but overreached himself, as in this case he had no hard evidence.

 

[davidsrsb]

...Unlike conventional power cables, which have propagation speeds that are less than 50% the speed of light, the Valhalla 2 Reference Power Cord has a speed of 91 % the speed of light.

It is very hard to make a cable as slow as 50% free space without intentionally including inductors.
As fast as 91% means mostly air spaced

 

[AndyU]

..

I have just pointed out the bleedin obvious that Nordorst had no need to resort to legal action, all they had to do was demonstrate their product and test is genuine by conducting an independently scrutinised test.

That's not at all obvious imo. Nordost were explicitly accused of rigging the dem by manipulating the volume level or track. There was no proof of this, so they had a right to ask for either proof or for the post to be withdrawn. It was withdrawn. There was no proof. They may well be dishonest charlatans but if you want to catch them out you need to do a better job. A video of the dem would do. Using a known track of a customer supplied cd would do. Challenging the salesman to correctly identify the cable under blind conditions would do. But saying you think you might have seen sleight of hand isn't good enough.

btw, you yourself seem to be buying an MDAC for which a vast raft of claims are being made about it's sound quality, despite the fact that no-one has heard one and not a single one of those claims has been subject the the double-blind AB-X trial you seem to regard as so important. Have you challenged JohnW to identify under double-blind conditions the merit of every single design choice he has made? Nope. And when (or if) you finally get the M-DAC will the predicted avalanche of hyperbole be challenged on the basis that it is unvalidated by double-blind AB-X trials? Nope. Sauce for the goose. But not for the gander.

 

[BE718]

That's not at all obvious imo. Nordost were explicitly accused of rigging the dem by manipulating the volume level or track. There was no proof of this, so they had a right to ask for either proof or for the post to be withdrawn. It was withdrawn. There was no proof. They may well be dishonest charlatans but if you want to catch them out you need to do a better job. A video of the dem would do. Using a known track of a customer supplied cd would do. Challenging the salesman to correctly identify the cable under blind conditions would do. But saying you think you might have seen sleight of hand isn't good enough.

btw, you yourself seem to be buying an MDAC for which a vast raft of claims are being made about it's sound quality, despite the fact that no-one has heard one and not a single one of those claims has been subject the the double-blind AB-X trial you seem to regard as so important. Have you challenged JohnW to identify under double-blind conditions the merit of every single design choice he has made? Nope. And when (or if) you finally get the M-DAC will the predicted avalanche of hyperbole be challenged on the basis that it is unvalidated by double-blind AB-X trials? Nope. Sauce for the goose. But not for the gander.

Oh it really is obvious. Whether accurate or not the report created doubt. Doubt which is not countered by heavy handed legal threats. Quite the opposite in fact. Doubt which could be very much countered by a independently scrutinised test.

Whatever the reality it is dumb from a marketing POV. Why didn't Nordost just invite the author to another demo which he could scrutinise? Simple eh?

Oh the Mdac..... Frankly I regret getting involved with it. I signed up for a cost effective upgrade board for the original. Johns inability to manage the project means it's been redesigned a dozen times and probably will another dozen times before it ever gets made. It has completely diverged from what I signed up for and has taken so long that I think the rest of the market has already overtaken even its latest incarnation. How could I possibly ask for abx tests of a product that doesn't exist, and will be ever morphing before it does?

I really have no idea how good the fdac will be, but I assure you I will tell it like it is, regardless of the opinions of others - which I suspect will somewhat exaggerate the products performance.

Having said that, one thing for sure is it will be good value for money.

 

[AndyU]

Oh it really is obvious. Whether accurate or not the report created doubt. Doubt which is not countered by heavy handed legal threats. Quite the opposite in fact. Doubt which could be very much countered by a independently scrutinised test.

Whatever the reality it is dumb from a marketing POV. Why didn't Nordost just invite the author to another demo which he could scrutinise? Simple eh?

..

Still not obvious. The blog made unsubstantiated allegations that could be commercially damaging. The demonstrator was accused of being a cheat. The manufacturers have the right to defend themselves from such claims. The demonstrator has a right to defend himself. Neither may merit such rights, but they have them. If they are cheating it would be simple to catch them bang to rights. Why not do so?

... and, fwiw, I think you should get a Chord Hugo or Hugo TT or even a Dave on trial.

 

[Alan Sircom]

Have you read the DR Aix post which was withdrawn? I can't exactly say without repeating the post he was "asked" to take down, but the gist of it is that tracks of different amplitudes were played not that the volume control was ridden. It's not complicated. The original posts can still be found if you look.

Not true. The 'Patrick' part of the posts clearly states the volume level of the preamp was moved from displaying '58' to displaying '61'. The subsequent claims about tracks on a CD-R are way too close to repeating libel to discuss.

 

[h.g.]

Not true. The 'Patrick' part of the posts clearly states the volume level of the preamp was moved from displaying '58' to displaying '61'. The subsequent claims about tracks on a CD-R are way too close to repeating libel to discuss.

Would sticking "alleged" in front of everything work for someone in your position chatting on an internet forum?

 

[AndyU]

Another way of looking at it .... a demonstrator changes the volume level and the track on a cd between dems and a significant number of listeners can't hear a difference. Which "proves" that a) there's no difference between tracks on a cd and b) the volume control doesn't make a difference. Sue me.

 

[tomek]

Some years ago during audio exhibition i was in a room with Nordost demo. It was the same story - longer cable sounds better, so you have to buy longer, more expensive cables, i had the impression that after cable change sound was louder and "Lars" was changing two or three cables at once.
Somebody from the audience asked, if he can change one cable at a time and than Lars answered "i will do it in my way".
After hearing this answer, few people (including me) left the demo room ...

 

[droodzilla]

Plenty of cheap amps capable of driving large power hungry speakers,

There are plenty on pfm who do claim to hear very little difference in many things hifi related yet spend silly money, to me, on equipment.

I buy CD players and amps based on:

Looks - do they look nice; I like CD and amp to match

Reliability - are they from a reputable company and seen as reliable

Servicability - if they break down will I be able to get them repaired

Ability to drive my speakers (amp only)

Features - I like tone controls because they're useful for tweaking bad recordings, and my room suffers from bass boom; ideally I'd like a reasonably priced amp with built in DAC and digital sound processing

Speakers are a different matter - so many variations in tonal balance, dynamics etc. The key thing for me is getting a speaker that works well in my small square room.

So there's plenty to think about even if you're sceptical about dramatic differences in the sound quality of amps and digital sources.

 

[Alan Sircom]

Would sticking "alleged" in front of everything work for someone in your position chatting on an internet forum?

No.