Is there any science to back up these little feet
- Thread starter Lee T
- Start date
Not talking about hi-fi here, I said music.
Do some research, you might learn something.
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
Well, half my degree is in music, from a musicology perspective. And I still have no idea what you are on about.
In recruiting musicians to perform in orchestras and so on, blind auditions are now routinely done: the musicians perform behind a screen so that their physical appearance and gender cannot prejudice the listener judging the performance.
Finding that little nugget took about 30 seconds, the internet is your friend!
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
But it's not a blind test in the way we would define a blind test, is it, because the listening panel knows that each performer is a different person. They are not being asked to identify performer A from performer B, they already know the performers are different people.
Also, I doubt the performers are required to each play the same piece of music.
lastly, if you wish to be obtuse, be my guest, just don't expect me to be bothered to google, just to see if I can work out what you are on about.
sq225917
Bit of this, bit of that
The orchestra blind serves to remove visual bias in the same way blinding an AB does. They are just using it in a different way, not telling the musicians apart is an identification way, just choosing the best musician based on sound alone. That would suffice for me if selecting between two pieces of kit. After all the outcomes are the same. I prefer A or B, or I can not tell them apart.
There may be cases when they can't discern a qualitative difference between the musicians, which is the same as not being able to spot two different bits of kit. Perhaps when this happens, they choose the one asking for the least money, or maybe just choose the best looking one, or maybe Instead of taking a break and trying again when they are less stressed they call the whole process into disripute.
Which do you think they do?
There may be cases when they can't discern a qualitative difference between the musicians, which is the same as not being able to spot two different bits of kit. Perhaps when this happens, they choose the one asking for the least money, or maybe just choose the best looking one, or maybe Instead of taking a break and trying again when they are less stressed they call the whole process into disripute.
Which do you think they do?
adamdea
You are not a sound quality evaluation device
But does anyone seek to claim to determine definitively that the observer has [incorrectly attributed what he thinks he hears to a particular physical cause]?The real point is that in many cases nobody really cares what the observer thinks, however important he may feel. The issue is the evidential unimportance of the observer's report due largely to absence of controls or corroborative evidence.
The "imagined" usage is not the real issue, although its persistent and inappropriate usage is revealing and ties in with the over emphasis on the supposed importance of finding a definitive explanation for the observers reports.
The painful truth is not that people theorise about the observer's "imagination"/misinterpreted perceptual experience, they just ignore it as not worth putting any weight on. You don't have to form definitive opinions about what you throw in the bin.
That may seem really really unfair to the observer who considers that it is outrageous of anyone not to treat his views on the sound of bits of clear plastic/cables/fuses as a revealed truth and a centrepiece which it is the job of all theories to explain. But that's his problem.
I hope that helps.
Steven Toy
Accuphase newbie
Speak for yourself!
Objectivists do not want to spend money on audio. They want to convince themselves that the best sound can be bought for peanuts apart from the loudspeakers and room treatment.
Of course they don't want someone waxing lyrical about a tweak or a box that allegedly improves the quality of music reproduction. Of course they want to trivialise such findings and declare them wanting of rigour.
A majority of audio enthusiasts do not think this way which is why audio magazines sell and audio blogs are read.
Of course objectivists want to give the impression that their way of thinking is the default option. It is a false impression.
I find reading someone's subjective impression of how a box sounds far more interesting than staring at a few graphs with squiggly lines.
That's completely untrue Steven,bi have spent considerable money on hifi over the years, well I did until I became informed enough to work on the aspects that make big differences and not worry about things that if they do even exist make vanishingly small differences.
I want your tweaks to improve the sound of my system, problem is I find when you listen to many of them I find they simply don't. Dig a little deeper and you find the claims of the manufacturer are often complete twaddle.
You are obviously happy to rely on faith,nth ate fine but don't be surprised when you do wax lyrical on an Internet forum that someone comes along and goes. Hang on a minute, that doesn't work.
No they don't. Certainly no more than a subjectivist thinks theirs is.
Well it is true that reading verbose fiction can be more entertaining than scientific information, I will give you that.
Perhaps if you learnt a little bit about what the "squiggly" lines mean you would start to understand how useful it can be to stop you working in the dark and you might be a little less frightened of it
Possibly, but the sum of several insignificant differences may make the difference between a good and a very good component.
finkaudio
pfm Member
Definitely, yes
For me, the whole discussion (there is another thread as well) is hard to understand. I thought we Germans are so rational and want to explain everything to the last bit
. But in this case, I'm a lot more relaxed. I'm trying to listen with my heart and soul, not only with my brain. Many small improvements are not the sort of improvements you find in A/B comparisons. You find them over time.Maybe the fighters for A/B don't know the concept of a setup that is fine tuned over a longer time. To really get into your system, it needs time, many hours of (happy) listening and passion for the music. Once you know your setup that well, it's easy to even hear the smallest changes easily.
Yes, those small things are not relevant if you look at the big picture, but as Markus said, many of them together will help to make the setup fitting to your way of enjoying music. And this is not a matter of money....but that's another story.
It seems a pity so many have forgotten why they bought a a good HiFi system to begin with. It's fine to tinker, but it isn't when the end of the hobby becomes the tinkering.
I've stopped, by the way, don't even play with moving the speakers to get 'better' sound. Even enjoyed listening to my SFs, one of which is on the fridge and the other on a chest of drawers, more than when I was a stand fidgeter.
I've stopped, by the way, don't even play with moving the speakers to get 'better' sound. Even enjoyed listening to my SFs, one of which is on the fridge and the other on a chest of drawers, more than when I was a stand fidgeter.
radamel
Music Fiend
Definitely, yes
For me, the whole discussion (there is another thread as well) is hard to understand. I thought we Germans are so rational and want to explain everything to the last bit
Maybe the fighters for A/B don't know the concept of a setup that is fine tuned over a longer time. To really get into your system, it needs time, many hours of (happy) listening and passion for the music. Once you know your setup that well, it's easy to even hear the smallest changes easily.
Yes, those small things are not relevant if you look at the big picture, but as Markus said, many of them together will help to make the setup fitting to your way of enjoying music. And this is not a matter of money....but that's another story.
Good posts.
In some cases IME the end result of several small improvements can be quite significant. If one does not care about these small improvements one may miss a lot in terms of music enjoyment.
Definitely, yes
For me, the whole discussion (there is another thread as well) is hard to understand. I thought we Germans are so rational and want to explain everything to the last bit
Maybe the fighters for A/B don't know the concept of a setup that is fine tuned over a longer time. To really get into your system, it needs time, many hours of (happy) listening and passion for the music. Once you know your setup that well, it's easy to even hear the smallest changes easily.
Yes, those small things are not relevant if you look at the big picture, but as Markus said, many of them together will help to make the setup fitting to your way of enjoying music. And this is not a matter of money....but that's another story.
Im sorry but just because I might advocate a more scientific way of comparing equipment does not mean I dont understand the concept of developing a system. However the point is that certain people on this forum are wilfully oblivious to things that make a big difference (ie room acoustics) and seem to think its more productive to play with plastic clips in their equipment stand.
Now I think you have hit on a relevant point here,
"to make the setup fitting to your way of enjoying music".
I think some people enjoy tinkering, nothing wrong with that at all, however I think what is often done has no bearing on actually improving the performance of the system.
When people get to the point of employing allegedly anti vibration plastic in a mains block and actually thinking it makes an improvement to the sound, then it becomes very difficult to be kind and not point and laugh.
Or perhaps the sum is still insignificant.
finkaudio
pfm Member
Nothing wrong with scientific approach - as long a it is real science and not hobby research that I have noticed on both sides of the discussion (Marketing BS you can read about some questionable products)
Unfortunately, Audio is getting so small, that no bigger company really is willing to continue research. And the market is moving into BT and wireless junk speakers - so all the development money goes there.
Nothing wrong with scientific approach - as long a it is real science and not hobby research that I have noticed on both sides of the discussion (Marketing BS you can read about some questionable products)
Unfortunately, Audio is getting so small, that no bigger company really is willing to continue research. And the market is moving into BT and wireless junk speakers - so all the development money goes there.
The hobby "research" (BTW I work in vibration, have an instrumentation and measuement systems background in the aero industry - my current employer works in areas of acoustics, AIV, FEA and so on) is only presented here to demonstrate some things which are, and of course not going on. Its not research in the sense you talk about.
This all started with the subject of microphony and the position of some that their equipment stands were effective at isolating vibration from the equipment. A cursory glance at the product suggested that it would be fairly ineffective at isolating vibration. A few measurements with CSI2130 and B&K Pulse demonstrated that this was indeed the case. The measurements also demonstrated that things like solid metal cones are not particularly good at isolating vibration either - not that I needed convincing of that, but some do.
I take on board your comments about the size of the audio industry, however is the research to develop well engineered product really that esoteric? I think that where it does become a lot more challenging is psychoacoustics.
I also tend to share TonyLs position on this - namely that the foo merchants that pervade some of the audio market do nothing to help a shrinking industry.
Tony L
Administrator
Art Dudley's 'Three Universal Tweaks' column in this months (September) Stereophile is most interesting. He's advocating a) abandoning all spikes, cones etc wherever they may reside as he thinks they sound wrong and recommends (as do I) simple felt pads between speaker and stand, b) placing all ones kit on one table (as do I), and c) the use of a decent quality mains plug-board into which all kit is plugged (again, no disagreement from me). Nice to read some sense in a magazine for a change!