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Ornette Coleman Quartet

mr.datsun said:
An Ornette-wise confession: To be honest, I can't stand Free Jazz, preferring his tune-based works.
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It took me ages to even get further than five minutes into it, which is a shame really as it does get rather more accessible the further into it you venture. It starts frantically with everyone free-blowing, then goes into a structure of an individual member taking a solo, bit more free-blowing, next person taking their solo etc. The pattern becomes a lot clearer, and by the time it gets to the bass and drum solos it's calmed down quite substantially. It's actually not that 'free' at all, certainly not compared to where Coltrane took things later (Ascension, Interstellar Space etc). This is stuff I have to be in the right mood for, and I find it makes the most sense in near-field and lights out in the dark, i.e. no distractions and very clear sound so you can follow every line with ease. I've got a beautiful US mono original, but that's really not the way to hear it IMO, this one needs good stereo separation to pick the bones out of. It's an important record in the grand scheme of things, so worth preserving with.

PS I've just stuck it on now and I'm surprised how sensible and tonal it all sounds - I must have been listening to too much Coltrane of late! There's a fair bit of Dixieland jazz going on in there!
 
73Chaz said:
I've so far been unable to acclimatise to Ornette. I have a copy of This is Our Music and have never made it further than the end of the first track.
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Strange; listening to this now and I really can't remember what I found so difficult about it. It's rather good.

It followed on this evening from my first listen to corea / holland / altschul: A.R.C.

So maybe it's all about context.
 
73Chaz said:
I've so far been unable to acclimatise to Ornette. I have a copy of This is Our Music and have never made it further than the end of the first track.

Maybe indeed to try a little harder...
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I'm only on CD 3 so far, but I haven't found it as difficult as I expected - that doesn't mean I think it's MOR.

What I tend to do is listen to the rhythm section - especially the drums - and then listen to the other instruments layering on top of that. I find that once I've found the (for want of a better word) grove, it makes it easier to follow what's happening and puts everything into context.
 
Tony L said:
It took me ages to even get further than five minutes into it, which is a shame really as it does get rather more accessible the further into it you venture. It starts frantically with everyone free-blowing, then goes into a structure of an individual member taking a solo, bit more free-blowing, next person taking their solo etc. The pattern becomes a lot clearer, and by the time it gets to the bass and drum solos it's calmed down quite substantially. It's actually not that 'free' at all, certainly not compared to where Coltrane took things later (Ascension, Interstellar Space etc). This is stuff I have to be in the right mood for, and I find it makes the most sense in near-field and lights out in the dark, i.e. no distractions and very clear sound so you can follow every line with ease. I've got a beautiful US mono original, but that's really not the way to hear it IMO, this one needs good stereo separation to pick the bones out of. It's an important record in the grand scheme of things, so worth preserving with.

PS I've just stuck it on now and I'm surprised how sensible and tonal it all sounds - I must have been listening to too much Coltrane of late! There's a fair bit of Dixieland jazz going on in there!
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Thanks for the insights...

It's interesting because the first time I heard this was at art school. Clive Mantle, a guy in our shared studio space, bought in a dansette and played the Free Jazz album all the time. I remember it clearly because of the Jackson Pollock on the cover. At that time I was already well-versed in Henry Cow and their 'difficult' rock improv, for example, and yet this never clicked - it sounded like the old world to me - jazz (ok, naively).

I know I could learn it but at an upfront immediate tactile level it still does not connect, so I have never really tried. I don't reckon it's about barriers and ideas of difficulty any more - it seems to have none of the things I like about Ornette Coleman's 60s work - tunes and space. Yes, I feel that Free Jazz is a total mess, but one day, I will work through it and discover the structure.
 
It has been said that if you listen closely, Ornette's playing has a lot of feeling, melody and the blues in it, not just free and wild wailing. There's much truth to that!
 
hockman said:
It has been said that if you listen closely, Ornette's playing has a lot of feeling, melody and the blues in it, not just free and wild wailing. There's much truth to that!
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I easily can relate to that. It's just there (the feeling). He talks through his instrument. Perhaps this is on of the the key reasons I like him. I do feel it's kind of buried in Free Jazz.
 
I have The Shape Of Jazz To Come on the recent-ish Rhino 180g slab of wax and it's very good indeed. I've been looking for more classic Atlantic period LPs but no luck so far.

It amazes/saddens me just how many copyright-expired pressings are around just now. I was in both branches of Fopp in Glasgow the other week and, apart from a copy of The Koln Concert, every last LP in the 'jazz' sections of both stores was bogus. It was the same in HMV too. This simply isn't right...
 
hockman said:
It has been said that if you listen closely, Ornette's playing has a lot of feeling, melody and the blues in it, not just free and wild wailing. There's much truth to that!
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Yes, I agree with this as well. A lot of his playing sounds to me like a blues wail. For me it's one of the things that really sets him aside from most of the later New Thing free players (except maybe Albert Ayler?) and European free jazz.
 
Amazon pricing does seem very odd at times: the Real Gone Jazz boxed set is currently GBP21.74 from .co.uk, but only around 15 Euros including p&p from France. So I just saved ten quid.* On the other hand, Beauty Is A Rare Thing is priced at over 40 Euros over there. Do they sample local prices, adjust to what each market will stand, and then ship from wherever in Europe the stock happens to be?

(*And if anyone knows it's cheaper elsewhere, please don't spoil it for me!)
 
davidjt said:
Amazon pricing does seem very odd at times: the Real Gone Jazz boxed set is currently GBP21.74 from .co.uk, but only around 15 Euros including p&p from France. So I just saved ten quid.* On the other hand, Beauty Is A Rare Thing is priced at over 40 Euros over there. Do they sample local prices, adjust to what each market will stand, and then ship from wherever in Europe the stock happens to be?

(*And if anyone knows it's cheaper elsewhere, please don't spoil it for me!)
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I wonder whether people are involved in the pricing, at all. It could all be down to some complex proprietary algorithm.
 
hockman said:
If I were you, I'd look out for the 1980s pressings - orange & green label - mastered by George Peckham (usually marked as GP/AT in the deadwax). Reasonable price, more commonly found in the wild, very nice sound. Looks cheap with thin vinyl but don't be fooled.

I'm not a fan of recent reissues - audiophile or otherwise. (Note - the original mastertapes of a lot of Atlantic material were destroyed in a warehouse fire years ago).
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Mine came today. It has AT in the deadwax. And also (RP) P.

Needed a bit of cleaning up and whilst not perfect, sounds very good.
 
Is the 'RP' in cursive? If it is, it may actually be 'GP', with a stylised upper case 'G' (not lower case cursive 'r'). Then it indicates that Piros did the mastering. I think. :confused:
 
hockman said:
Is the 'RP' in cursive? If it is, it may actually be 'GP', with a stylised upper case 'G' (not lower case cursive 'r'). Then it indicates that Piros did the mastering. I think. :confused:
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Not cursive and I got the letters the wrong way round last night -

(PR) P

And I thought I was buying a UK copy, but now it's dawned on me that this is a US pressing. I was wondering why it was a paste-on cover.
 
I think 'PR' means that it was pressed at Presswell.

So you didn't get a Piros. No worries, a lot of other Atlantic pressings from that era do sound very decent anyway (I've compared some of them with earlier pressings from the 60s). Enjoy your album!
 
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