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Serious demonstration question

Looks like someone is trying to maximise his margin to me ;)

Plenty of cables take an age to settle and run-in. You just have to know what the reasons are, why this could possibly happen, and then experience it for yourself to believe that the burn-in of cables in certain applications is a relevant one.

I've no issue in someone believing that extended burn-in is fudge, they have probably never encountered a cable that goes through the phenomenom, or just have no reason to believe it is possible. But I've been on the receiving end of some cables that do strange things for quite an extended period of time.

Sometimes things just take a little time for the magic to happen.[/QUOTE]

Of course, it has nothing to do with habituation, has it?

Chris
 
Sorry . but I would consider it to be dodgy , unless he was throwing in the cable free .

How can you evaluate the speakers with different cables
how do you know sabotage isn't going on

This is the kind of shit which plagues hifi and gives it a bad name . As has been said there is no substitute for home demo but varying the speaker cable in a demo is just wrong , it nearly as bad as hifi mags giving five stars to cables tested in one system and 1 room .
 
Looks like someone is trying to maximise his margin to me ;)

Plenty of cables take an age to settle and run-in. You just have to know what the reasons are, why this could possibly happen, and then experience it for yourself to believe that the burn-in of cables in certain applications is a relevant one.

I've no issue in someone believing that extended burn-in is fudge, they have probably never encountered a cable that goes through the phenomenom, or just have no reason to believe it is possible. But I've been on the receiving end of some cables that do strange things for quite an extended period of time.

Sometimes things just take a little time for the magic to happen.[/QUOTE]

Of course, it has nothing to do with habituation, has it?

Chris

Possibly not. Anyone who has lived through the split personality of Naim amplifier sound as it goes through those first few days of coming to life would argue - strenuously - that the changes you go through are nothing to do with habituation. If they were, Naim would have a lot of returned products sent back in week two.

But as I said, the problem here is one of test credibility. Those who tried to test this would be considered credulous if they came out in favour of there being some kind of burn in time, and their results would be ignored by those who have already 'experienced' it. So, I'm not 100% convinced what you hear during those dark days of running in a Naim amp is really heard by the listener, but I'm convinced enough to satisfy me.

Ultimately, two weeks after it's all done, everything's fine. No one dies either way.
 
Sorry . but I would consider it to be dodgy , unless he was throwing in the cable free .

How can you evaluate the speakers with different cables
how do you know sabotage isn't going on

This is the kind of shit which plagues hifi and gives it a bad name . As has been said there is no substitute for home demo but varying the speaker cable in a demo is just wrong , it nearly as bad as hifi mags giving five stars to cables tested in one system and 1 room .

Not necessarily. The 'change one thing' rule is pathetically reductionist at times. It often doesn't work.

This could be one of those scenarios. We don't have enough additional information to go on.

If the demonstrator thinks the speaker cables make so big a difference to the sound of the system they have to be considered an extension of the loudspeakers themselves, they would change cables with each speaker. So if cable A shows speaker X in the best light and cable B shows speaker Y in the best light, but the reverse is not true, they would ultimately doing the end user a disservice by not demonstrating the components as best as possible.

It's possible they are downplaying the first speaker by demonstrating it inappropriately, but I'd reckon they wouldn't do something as overt as picking out the 'right' cable for the task. They'd do the foot tapping thing and the volume level thing and the other more stealthy tricks they play instead. I'd hesitate to say if they are picking out the right cable for the loudspeaker, they are probably more sincere than most, thinking it like seasoning the system to taste.
 
Quicker and easier to change the cables at the amplifier end than by perambulating between four speakers, surely?
 
Of
course, it has nothing to do with habituation, has it?


No not at all. I've heared systems that have not been moved, changed or manipulated in any way other than to be used totally transform over the course of a couple of months. Not even in my house or my system either. So habitiuation does not even enter into it.

If you genuinely do not hear the issues , or have no problem in accepting that your system does not change, then you are a very lucky man indeed.
 
But how did you remember how they sounded two months before?
Changing room furnishings , listening position etc will change SQ.
Keith.
 
Of


No not at all. I've heared systems that have not been moved, changed or manipulated in any way other than to be used totally transform over the course of a couple of months. Not even in my house or my system either. So habitiuation does not even enter into it.

If you genuinely do not hear the issues , or have no problem in accepting that your system does not change, then you are a very lucky man indeed.

I'm sorry, but there are simply no issues to hear in electronic equipment. Electromechanical stuff, certainly.

Chris
 
If the demonstrator thinks the speaker cables make so big a difference to the sound of the system they have to be considered an extension of the loudspeakers themselves, they would change cables with each speaker. So if cable A shows speaker X in the best light and cable B shows speaker Y in the best light, but the reverse is not true, they would ultimately doing the end user a disservice by not demonstrating the components as best as possible.[/QUOTE

I agree with this statement, however, the thread relates to a dem where the cable manufacturers recommendation is to run the cable for extended periods before being optimised. In this instance it looks as though this was not the case.?
 
Not necessarily. The 'change one thing' rule is pathetically reductionist at times. It often doesn't work.
This could be one of those scenarios. We don't have enough additional information to go on.

If the demonstrator thinks the speaker cables make so big a difference to the sound of the system they have to be considered an extension of the loudspeakers themselves, they would change cables with each speaker. So if cable A shows speaker X in the best light and cable B shows speaker Y in the best light, but the reverse is not true, they would ultimately doing the end user a disservice by not demonstrating the components as best as possible.

It's possible they are downplaying the first speaker by demonstrating it inappropriately, but I'd reckon they wouldn't do something as overt as picking out the 'right' cable for the task. They'd do the foot tapping thing and the volume level thing and the other more stealthy tricks they play instead. I'd hesitate to say if they are picking out the right cable for the loudspeaker, they are probably more sincere than most, thinking it like seasoning the system to taste.

This is absurd , its a matter of simple logic . how can you evaluate A with system b , If c changes . Answer , you cant .

By the demonstrators own admission he is accepting cable makes a difference [ why change ] If you introduce the concept of synergy in to a speaker demo you will be lost in a fog .

Nothing wrong with evaluating both with the same cable and then suggesting a cable swap on both .
 
If the demonstrator thinks the speaker cables make so big a difference to the sound of the system they have to be considered an extension of the loudspeakers themselves, they would change cables with each speaker. So if cable A shows speaker X in the best light and cable B shows speaker Y in the best light, but the reverse is not true, they would ultimately doing the end user a disservice by not demonstrating the components as best as possible.[/QUOTE

I agree with this statement, however, the thread relates to a dem where the cable manufacturers recommendation is to run the cable for extended periods before being optimised. In this instance it looks as though this was not the case.?

Which neatly defines said cable manufacturer as a charlatan.

Chris
 
One thing you've got to remember is that the customer is always right, if he believes cables make a difference he will believe they make a difference, end off, you would have to determine while chatting what view a customer has and act accordingly.
 
But how did you remember how they sounded two months before?

Quite simple really, like utter garbage.

That's a bit like you being asked to give an opinion on a piece of kit with a fault on it without having a unit to compare it to. You are either capable of determinig if something is working correctly or not given your experience with a unit that is perfect.(Especially if you sell it ).

You then either have a suspicion that something is not quite right and check it with a dem model to confirm, or give it a clean bill of health and sign it off confident in you knowing your products.
 
Which neatly defines said cable manufacturer as a charlatan.


No It doesn't, it simply means that you are uncomfortable in believing the opinion of the manufacturer and his findings regading his product,,

An opinion to which you are perfectly entitled, but a belief that is formed without actually trying and listening to yourself.

I have and I've heared it, many times. I've also heared lots of gear that is utter garbage (IMHO), and makes me wonder who would buy it, but they do.
I suspect in systems like this maybe you can't hear the effect, I can't hear any music either in most of them.
 
No It doesn't, it simply means that you are uncomfortable in believing the opinion of the manufacturer and his findings regading his product,,

An opinion to which you are perfectly entitled, but a belief that is formed without actually trying and listening to yourself.

I have and I've heared it, many times. I've also heared lots of gear that is utter garbage (IMHO), and makes me wonder who would buy it, but they do.
I suspect in systems like this maybe you can't hear the effect, I can't hear any music either in most of them.

I dont try seances, casting the runes, dowsing, homeopathy or any number of other charlatanry, either.

The manufacturer is either technically illiterate or a bloody liar and a charlatan if he maintains there are ANY electrical changes to his cables brought about by passing AC current.

And intimating that you have some kind of "Golden Ears" only reiforces the fact that, in tuth, you have some kind of "Golden Gullibility".

Chris
 
Quite simple really, like utter garbage.

That's a bit like you being asked to give an opinion on a piece of kit with a fault on it without having a unit to compare it to. You are either capable of determinig if something is working correctly or not given your experience with a unit that is perfect.(Especially if you sell it ).

You then either have a suspicion that something is not quite right and check it with a dem model to confirm, or give it a clean bill of health and sign it off confident in you knowing your products.

So you are claiming to have a just about unique gift, then? A reliable long term auditory memory.

That AND golden ears!!!!

Chris
 
This is absurd , its a matter of simple logic . how can you evaluate A with system b , If c changes . Answer , you cant .

By the demonstrators own admission he is accepting cable makes a difference [ why change ] If you introduce the concept of synergy in to a speaker demo you will be lost in a fog .

Nothing wrong with evaluating both with the same cable and then suggesting a cable swap on both .

Because the person would never buy the second speaker. If it's the right speaker for the listener (for whatever reason) and the salesperson knows the cable in the first system isn't right for the second (for whatever reason) they should change both. If the cable was undermining the first speaker, this is wrong, but if the cable/speaker combination works well for the first presentation and a different cable/speaker combination works well for the second presentation, they should play both in the best possible light.

Why should the whole synergy thing be abandoned? If the salesperson thinks the system is so out of sorts with the first cable in the second system, they should change it. They should have a damn good reason for changing it.

Change 'loudspeaker' for 'car' and 'cable' for 'tyre' and you'll quickly understand what I'm getting at.

Imagine this: The E-Class handles well with Goodyears, but is twitchy with Pirellis. The AMG version of the E-Class is precise on Pirellis, but wallows around with Goodyears. You are a Mercedes dealer. You have a customer with an E-Class who is interested in the AMG version.

Should you let the person take a test drive in an AMG with Goodyears for due diligence, in the certain knowledge that they will never buy an AMG because you never have a second chance to make a first impression, or should you put the right tyres on and provide an appropriate demonstration?

You have £2,000 commission riding on making the correct answer.
 


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