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Germany sees sense and legalises cannabis

blossomchris said:
Not sure of that BT, if you take any drug for a long while the benefits, especially good sleep dissapper ime
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We know this, but if it works today then you'll take it today. If it works tomorrow, you'll take it tomorrow. If after a week it works a bit less well, you'll take a bit more. If after a year it stops working, well by then the die is cast and you know that stopping it will make you feel REALLY bad. We all know that this is how opiate addiction works, very quickly inddeed, and probably other drugs too. Including alcohol and tobacco.
 
stevec67 said:
You too! :p
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Good :), We were coming at this discussion from opposite ends of the spectrum, and such a conversation is not served well by use of forums to argue/discuss the points raised. Sometimes its best to agree to disagree and leave it at that for a happy forum.
 
SteveG said:
Unfortunately I know a few people who've taken that approach (mostly with tobacco but sometimes with other drugs) and its never ended well. Mostly they're dead now, well before their time.
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The world is full of people who take that approach.
It doesn’t make it right or wrong.
And I didn’t and don’t suggest that it makes their situation better.
It merely ‘is.’
 
SteveG said:
When cycling in London and the surrounding areas I could smell weed from a significant proportion of the cars. Not something I've encountered to that extent anywhere else, including when cycling in the Netherlands.

Not a clue how that affected accident statistics though.
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Maybe there's a cultural thing going on. We all know that in France the consumption of alcohol is far more frequent than in the UK, but they tend to drink less. The French don't really have a concept of "let's all go out and get p*ssed". If you suggest it they look at you gone out. "Why would we want to do that? Go for a drink, sure, and if one or two of us have one too many, well, these things happen, but that's not the goal"
Maybe Brits just like to get leathered, on whatever the drug is.
 
stevec67 said:
We know this, but if it works today then you'll take it today. If it works tomorrow, you'll take it tomorrow. If after a week it works a bit less well, you'll take a bit more. If after a year it stops working, well by then the die is cast and you know that stopping it will make you feel REALLY bad. We all know that this is how opiate addiction works, very quickly inddeed, and probably other drugs too. Including alcohol and tobacco.
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maybe you/all do know this, but I was responding to BT and had nowt to do with addiction, just having a decent kip
 
To be fair, although we brits do go on about being Brit in all is wonderousness, close inspection reveals a lot of cold rain and mud, a conservative regime, high taxation, beaches with muddy waters, and overcrowded spaces for most. France on the other hand, even if you are not at all wealthy, at least (mostly) has sun, open spaces, a slightly less R wing regime, some hope that small voices be heard, a memory of revolution, blue seas, fine cheap wine and a way of dealing with children that I've always smiled at.

I drink, and i know why :)
 
Rockmeister said:
to be fair, although we brits do go on about being brit in all is wonderousness, but, close inspection reveals a lot of cold rain and mud, a conservative regime, high taxation, beaches with muddy waters, and overcrowded spaces for most. France on the other hand, even if you are not at wealthy at least (mostly) has sun, open spaces,a slightly less R wing regime, some hope thjat small voices re heard, a memory of revolution, blue seas, fine cheap wind and a way of dealing with children that I've always smiled at.

I drink, and i know why :)
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Hmm. Have you lived in France for a while, or visited the cities in the north? I have, and some of what you say is true, but if you live in a flat in pretty much any French city it can get rather oppressive. If you want a day by the sea and you live in Paris or Lyon, you'll need to get up early, and if that sea is anywhere on the north coast be aware that it's the same North Sea as we share, so the Caribbean it isn't.
 
stevec67 said:
Hmm. Have you lived in France for a while, or visited the cities in the north? I have, and some of what you say is true, but if you live in a flat in pretty much any French city it can get rather oppressive. If you want a day by the sea and you live in Paris or Lyon, you'll need to get up early, and if that sea is anywhere on the north coast be aware that it's the same North Sea as we share, so the Caribbean it isn't.
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You think Birmingham or Manchester are better.
?
 
Rockmeister said:
You think Birmingham or Manchester are better.
?
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No, but you said "France on the other hand" which suggests that they have it better. I'm suggesting that if you live in a little flat in a tough bit of Paris, Lyon, or Marseille your life is likely to be just as crap as in Birmingham or Manch. Even if you can go to the seaside. After all, Grimsby is next to Cleethorpes, and that has a pleasant enough beach. It doesn't stop Grimsby being a bloody dump and nobody's idea of a good place to live. And I do know it well, I've worked there and my recently departed best mate lived there his whole life.
 
SteveG said:
When cycling in London and the surrounding areas I could smell weed from a significant proportion of the cars. Not something I've encountered to that extent anywhere else, including when cycling in the Netherlands.

Not a clue how that affected accident statistics though.
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They're running cars on weed now?

Seriously though, I don't doubt it, though I'm guessing you've no evidence as to whether it was the driver or passenger(s).

Re your earlier post, I do realise that some people like yourself don't like the smell and that's totally fair, a lot of people don't like the smell of tobacco smoke or stale alcohol from walking past a pub , I'm sure many Vegans don't like the smell of butchers shops or meat being cooked, lots of city folk don't like rural smells.
I don't like the smell of perfume and cosmetic counters in the likes of Boots or department stores and people will pay a fortune to cover themselves in stinky stuff.
To each their own.

Anyway, the topic I believe is the decriminalisation or legalisation of Cannabis and even though I don't partake I'm pro-decriminalisation for the reasons given earlier.
 
Big Tabs said:
There seems to be a distinct difference between the people who have used and those who have not, in terms of understanding what would make someone want to be in an altered state.

Putting the obvious recreational use for euphoric experience aside -

If you had been raped or some other abuse situation that one would rather forget, then using something to get ‘out of your mind,’ might be a preference.
Perhaps you witness the horrific circumstances of a close friends suicide.
Maybe you have witnessed something vile that is beyond normal comprehension… usually a situation were you have had little or no control.
Say that every night when you try to sleep, the memory of someone abusing you haunts you the moment that you have no other stimulus to distract you.
How would you cope with that situation?
Many people in that situation would gladly take drugs of any kind to numb the mind and at least sleep.
So my feelings are that if someone needs to take drugs of any kind, I am not going to judge them.


It could be argued that what people in that circumstance need is intensive counselling or a loving supportive family, and/or prescription antidepressants.
Or even regular exercise…

It just ain’t that simple.
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But use of drugs in that way don't solve anything, they are nothing more than temporary "band aids". Many alcoholics over the years have learned that lesson the hard way. So I'm not sure it's a road we should be going down let alone advocating it as a justification for legalisation.

Whilst I can certainly empathise with people in such situations that may want to use drugs in that way, I don't believe we are helping them by allowing them to do so.
 
hifinutt said:
the drink and drive campaign has been fairly successful in changing attitudes .
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I'd call that a huge understatement. Even I recall a time when practically nobody would give a second thought to getting in their car to drive home after a night out in the pub (and having consumed more than enough alcohol to clearly not be fit to drive). Now it's closer to the other way around (in general across the entire population - of course there are always going to be the young who believe they're immune to death).
 
gez said:
But use of drugs in that way don't solve anything, they are nothing more than temporary "band aids". Many alcoholics over the years have learned that lesson the hard way. So I'm not sure it's a road we should be going down let alone advocating it as a justification for legalisation.

Whilst I can certainly empathise with people in such situations that may want to use drugs in that way, I don't believe we are helping them by allowing them to do so.
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so where are the alternatives for them, Mental health services flat out and under funded
 
Realistically though, if it's fully legalised and it's production/sale is controlled, what are the realistic chances that "high potentency" canabis will be available legally? I have a strong suspicion that the authorities would never be able to allow the sale of such cannabis and then we'd still be left with an illegal market and it's associated problems.
 
Finnegan said:
Ok, we’re 11 pages in and, as always, the arguments are starting to repeat themselves. So let’s recap. The main objections to legalising cannabis seem to be as follows.

1. It’s harmful.- Nobody is seriously suggesting it isn’t. There does seem to be a consensus emerging of a link between using cannabis and an increased risk of developing psychosis. However, there is no conclusive evidence that using cannabis CAUSES psychosis. Professor David Nutt, who is/ was universally acknowledged as an expert, argued the legal status of a drug should be determined by its potential harmful effects; and by this metric cannabis does not warrant Class B classification under the MDA 1971.

2. Legalisation would lead to an increase in use.- This is simply not supported by the evidence. Portugal, despite widespread decriminalisation of all illicit drugs, experiences a below EU average in illicit drug use. Anecdotally, my time living in the Netherlands suggested to me that Dutch citizens were in the minority of cannabis users. It was a predominantly tourist and expat market.

3. Legalisation would increase the burden on statutory services tasked with policing prohibition, healthcare etc.- Point 2 deals with this, but in addition, the burden already exists and is among us. Drug driving, for example, is already a feature of our society. Public education akin to drink-driving is the key rather than continued prohibition. A clear, consistent, informed and practical message to the young works infinitely better than ‘Just Say No,’

4. Legalisation would not eliminate the illicit market.- True, but it would make significant inroads into it. Who wants to hang around dodgy pubs to buy a lump of pollen and wax off some shifty bloke, when you could visit a regulated outlet where quality and unadulterated product would be much more likely, and your taxes could go towards funding drug addiction.

5. Cannabis might be comparatively less harmful than other drugs, but it acts as a gateway, the first step to becoming addicted to harder drugs.- Again, not supported by the evidence. Although its illegality does increase the likelihood that users will come into contact with other, more harmful substances.
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Just re point 2 - I think we do have to be somewhat cautious concluding that what works in one country will automatically work in a different country, particularly when there are notable cultural differences between them.
 
stevec67 said:
I rather favour Taylor's LBV. As you say though, you could probably get away with any tawny.
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Well owl be damned !

The potential legalisation of dope in another country has elicited 12 pp of discussion, invective, health warnings and alternative psychoactive digression. What a forum !!!!!
 
zeon said:
Thanks for your polite reply. Unlike the previous poster. Surely though it's hard to deny there is not a huge drug s problem in this country ?
Seen it in my own extended family with the brother in law. Used to be a lovely bloke but now is a broken man after years of hard drugs.
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You’re very welcome @zeon and yes I would say there is a high use of recreational drugs in this country, but it’s been that way for many years.

I wouldn’t be surprised if all drugs in this country were legalised, that after an initial spike where people were trying different substances, that drug use actually went down.
 
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