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Does connecting a streamer to Ethernet make much difference compared to wifi?

I remain cynical that purveyors of high end cables, “audio grade” network switches and commercial software are wholly on the side of this story that suits them. However, it’s refreshing that TheFlash is offering to demo. If I’ve understood correctly. Very gentlemanly, if a little far for me.

It’s also confusing as to why DAC manufacturers don’t design/engineer the noise out? Big USP and huge theoretical saving. And if that’s not possible, why don’t cheap RFI filters work as used in radio applications?
 
TheFlash said:
For example, if we have say 5m of ethernet cable from our router to our streamer, then through a digital lens there is no difference in placing a network switch just after the router or in placing it just before the streamer. But in sound quality terms, there is usually a clearly audible difference and placing it just before the streamer is the better option. This is not because it does anything digitally; it's because it does something analogue-ly... as in massively reducing the RFI reaching the streamer and ultimately the DAC.
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Sorry I'm confused here, that's the same thing, either way the switch will be in the middle so it will be both before the streamer and after the router, it can't be just one of them.

if we have say 5m of ethernet cable from our router to our streamer
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Router >> 5m cable >> streamer

in placing a network switch just after the router
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Router >> 5m cable >> switch >> 5m cable >> streamer

clearly audible difference and placing it just before the streamer is the better option
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Router >> 5m cable >> switch >> 5m cable >> streamer
 
Fourlegs said:
I am sure that someone such as Rob Watts would struggle with the design of networks for safety critical environments but I know who I would rather listen to in discussions regarding digital audio circuits and their susceptibility to out of audio band noise in dac analogue circuits
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But you don't listen to Rob Watts do you. He thinks Toslink is the best connection, you don't. He thinks expensive LPSUs aren't needed, you do. What is his view on the need for £1500 cables?
 
Jubal said:
I remain cynical that purveyors of high end cables, “audio grade” network switches and commercial software are wholly on the side of this story that suits them. However, it’s refreshing that TheFlash is offering to demo. If I’ve understood correctly. Very gentlemanly, if a little far for me.

It’s also confusing as to why DAC manufacturers don’t design/engineer the noise out? Big USP and huge theoretical saving. And if that’s not possible, why don’t cheap RFI filters work as used in radio applications?
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The best antidote for cynicism is experience. Hearing the difference an audio grade (no inverted commas necessary, it's an actual thing) network switch is important here. I didn't come up with a product and then try to think of a purpose for it... you seem to be saying, in not so many words, "well they would say that wouldn't they". Yes, I/we would, but that doesn't make it untrue.

You may also be letting theory get in the way of practice. If you PM me, we can suss out the feasibility of my sending you a demo switch. You'll need to tell me a bit about your system but I can't see why we can't sort the logistics.

Off out this morning, will pick up your PM this afternoon. :)

Nigel
 
vacuum_tubes said:
Sorry I'm confused here, that's the same thing, either way the switch will be in the middle so it will be both before the streamer and after the router, it can't be just one of them.



Router >> 5m cable >> streamer



Router >> 5m cable >> switch >> 5m cable >> streamer



Router >> 5m cable >> switch >> 5m cable >> streamer
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IF you had read what he has been saying he suggests placing the switch “just“ after the router or “just” before the streamer using a 500mm cable. Get it right!
 
TheFlash said:
The key takeaway for anyone seeking to experiment for thermselves is proximity. If you're going to reduce RFI, whether with cables or filters or network switches or optical or magic beans... do it just before the streamer
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I agree and like you I am an advocate of mitigating network noise by means of a good switch before the steamer.

But also some streamers can themselves be a source of noise (not all noise comes from the network) and that is where filtering between the streamer and the dac can also help. In my own system I do both, a switch before the streamer and filtering between the streamer and DAC.

Jubal said:
It’s also confusing as to why DAC manufacturers don’t design/engineer the noise out? Big USP and huge theoretical saving. And if that’s not possible, why don’t cheap RFI filters work as used in radio applications?
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Indeed the dac manufacturers do try to design/engineer out the RF noise issue but a life long RF engineer I spoke to about this told me that RF is very difficult to properly filter out once it is in a circuit because it has a habit of leapfrogging around filters and between pcb tracks. When the Chord Mscaler was launched the designer said he had incorporated sufficient RF filters on its outputs and that unlike the former Blu2 the Mscaler would not need ferrited cables between it and the DAC. A short while later he stopped claiming that and instead said it was better but still benefited from using ferrited cables and also admitted that is what he uses in his own system.

The RF noise is pesky stuff.

Alex S said:
But you don't listen to Rob Watts do you. He thinks Toslink is the best connection, you don't. He thinks expensive LPSUs aren't needed, you do. What is his view on the need for £1500 cables?
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Yes he does say toslink is best but equally as I said above he also said when the Mscaler was launched that it did not need ferrited cables and I disagreed with him. He had the good grace to modify his position and say it did not ‘need’ ferrited cables but it benefitted from using them. And yes he does say that expensive LPSU are not needed and yet the devices he is now designing will have separate highly engineered power supplies so one might take from that he is perhaps modifying his view on power supplies. And on the matter of the cost of my cables the easiest way to answer you is to quote Rob Watts on this very matter,

”No I am not happy about that too - in the sense that the considerable isolation that has gone into the M scaler is still not 100% effective. But then you didn't hear the initial versions, nor see the huge amount of work that went into creating and improving the isolation. The remarkable thing is not that BNC cables make a difference, but that having spent a huge amount of time and effort into isolating the BNC drivers, it is still audible. We are talking about very tiny effects here; and improving an almost perfect telescope mirror into a perfect mirror takes infinite amounts of time and effort! We are talking about miniscule levels of RF noise being important, and that's the crazy thing about this situation.

As to whether it's a fair price depends upon the buyer. To some, £1400 is just the price of a good bottle of wine; to others it's enough to feed a family for a year, so represents enormous wealth. Only you can decide if the improvements is worth the price. Remember also that the Wave Stone cables are more reasonable at under £500.

And I certainly do not say you have to use Wave cables or indeed have to use ferrites - this is the surface finish on the icing of the cake after all. I post what is technically accurate, and my subjective observations are based upon honest, serious and careful listening tests. This approach has upset people within the industry; but I will only post what I see as being accurate at that moment in time (as my knowledge is (hopefully!) expanding). So I recommend Wave cables, as they work subjectively, and there is solid technical reasons why they work. I have in the past said that audiophile USB cables either sound the same as certified type 2 cables, or they degrade sound quality by adding more RF noise - they are designed unwittingly as RF noise generators. So too with audiophile BNC cables - the exception being Wave. I have taken some considerable flak from audiophiles who always assume that some exotic expensive brand will outperform the standard certified generic cables - and they get very upset when I humbly point out that they are "enjoying" a degradation. Look at the trouble I get into about SMPS against linears as another example.

To conclude: Wave cables work technically and subjectively. Only you can decide from trying them whether it's worth the cost, and represents value to you.”
 
Fergus said:
IF you had read what he has been saying he suggests placing the switch “just“ after the router or “just” before the streamer using a 500mm cable. Get it right!
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Eh there's no mention of a 50cm cable in his statement, just a 5m cable, which is why I used 5m cables in my sequences.
 
Jubal said:
It’s also confusing as to why DAC manufacturers don’t design/engineer the noise out? Big USP and huge theoretical saving. And if that’s not possible, why don’t cheap RFI filters work as used in radio applications?
Click to expand...

The same can be said for why most amp manufacturers spend all that time designing and testing an amp only to include a boggo kettle lead in the box. If its good enough for them it's good enough for me.
 
Jubal said:
I remain cynical that purveyors of high end cables, “audio grade” network switches and commercial software are wholly on the side of this story that suits them. However, it’s refreshing that TheFlash is offering to demo. If I’ve understood correctly. Very gentlemanly, if a little far for me.

It’s also confusing as to why DAC manufacturers don’t design/engineer the noise out? Big USP and huge theoretical saving. And if that’s not possible, why don’t cheap RFI filters work as used in radio applications?
Click to expand...

You don't need “audio grade” network switches and network cables (in fact most audiophile Ethernet cables are STP so you should not use them anyway). Just adding an enterprise switch and regular UTP cables will do.

I am also very sceptical of all things audiophile-labelled (in most threads I am seen as a hardline objectivist who posts measurments and papers/evidence all the time) but these network tweaks (at a total cost of £3 in Ethernet cables and £35 in a switch) have made a small but worthy improvement.

But I wasn't prepared for the improvement the Intona USB isolator made with my RME DAC, very substantial indeed.
It seems that other than Holo, which has a similar isolation integrated in its USB interface, all DACs will benefit from one.
 
vacuum_tubes said:
Eh there's no mention of a 50cm cable in his statement, just a 5m cable, which is why I used 5m cables in my sequences.
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Then you haven’t been reading this thread. And he does say “just before“ and ”just after” in the post you didn’t read properly to meet your own ends!
 
matt j said:
The same can be said for why most amp manufacturers spend all that time designing and testing an amp only to include a boggo kettle lead in the box. If its good enough for them it's good enough for me.
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Well, power cables do not carry audio signals so I don't see a need for any particular 'audiophile' requirements (unless you keep all you cables in a tight bundle in which case a bit of screening à la Supra might help).
I bought my kettle leads from Lindy, together with the USB cables and the Ethernet cables: cheap as chips. My speaker cables are used Ixos from eBay (£13.5 for 2x 7m) to match the carpet in a previous home, as requested by SWMBO.
 
TheFlash said:
The best antidote for cynicism is experience. Hearing the difference an audio grade (no inverted commas necessary, it's an actual thing) network switch is important here. I didn't come up with a product and then try to think of a purpose for it... you seem to be saying, in not so many words, "well they would say that wouldn't they". Yes, I/we would, but that doesn't make it untrue.

You may also be letting theory get in the way of practice. If you PM me, we can suss out the feasibility of my sending you a demo switch. You'll need to tell me a bit about your system but I can't see why we can't sort the logistics.

Off out this morning, will pick up your PM this afternoon. :)

Nigel
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I am not your target market. But I’d be delighted if someone else on the thread with a decent streamer/DAC and a dose of scepticism took up your offer and reported back.
 
Fergus said:
Then you haven’t been reading this thread. And he does say “just before“ and ”just after” in the post you didn’t read properly to meet your own ends!
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As you're clearly an expert on his products and he's not answering.

Why the need for "just before" or 50cm network cables then and what difference do they make?
 
Fourlegs said:
And yes he does say that expensive LPSU are not needed and yet the devices he is now designing will have separate highly engineered power supplies so one might take from that he is perhaps modifying his view on power supplies
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I suggest that is a Chord marketing decision. Anyway, at least your cables don't seem to make things worse.

You may think I go on the attack with your contributions and, yes I do, and here's the reason. I disagree with most of your posts, but that's hardly unique, I write bollocks myself most of the time, but here's the real reason: almost every post you make is a subtle, or unsubtle, soft sell. I believe trade members such as yourself should be paying Tony £1000 pa not £50. You will deny this but I find it unsavoury and would contrast with other trade members who have strong views, GT for example. I don't think Graham has ever tried to sell any Tron products in the Audio room. You will also see this as a personal attack, it isn't, I respond to the contents and style of your posts. You may well be one of the nicest people on earth.
 
Jubal said:
I am not your target market. But I’d be delighted if someone else on the thread with a decent streamer/DAC and a dose of scepticism took up your offer and reported back.
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I think there’s a reluctance to try these things because it could mean eating humble pie.
 
vacuum_tubes said:
As you're clearly an expert on his products and he's not answering.

Why the need for "just before" or 50cm network cables then and what difference do they make?
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It seems that he reached that conclusion after extensive (uncontrolled) comparative listening tests.
 
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